Lemon Lake and The Red ROC Disc Golf Club

[Bart]

Hi All,

Please help us save Lemon Lake by signing this petition.

The Red ROC Disc Golf Club members were the victims of a hostile takeover of this complex after we hosted the 2013 Worlds. We began working on the 1st of the 4 courses in 1998. In 2013, supported by the PDGA, Jay and Deb Svitko took over this complex under false pretenses. After 5 years they have not been able to inspire enough disc golfers to form a club. The courses are not maintained (other than mowing) and as of yesterday there are ZERO tee signs on any of the courses.

I'm taking this action because they are destroying this disc golf mecca RRDGC built over 14 years apparently out of greed (Deb doesn't even disc). Browse the comments already on the petition to get more local perspective.

Thanks for your consideration.
Bart Zandstra #11924

http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/lemon-lake-and-the-red?source=c.em&r_by=20175524

 

[@iDiscGolf]

I'm not up to date on this. Or really understand all that I read. What do you mean save? What hostile takeover? What were the false pretenses? What does signing the petition do for you?

 

[LaserGlide68]

From Jay Svitko's Facebook page

Where are the tee signs at Lemon Lake? We have posted on this topic a couple of times but are further providing more clarification. All of the old tee logs were removed from the Silver and Gold Courses last year. Why? Rot and infestation. All those logs had been sealed numerous times and painted over the past several seasons. And the permanent tee signs for Red, Blue and White? All the permanent signs were removed last year due to the park's planned roadwork that was to be completed last year. The park is hopeful to rearchitect the park at some point. Since there was really no clear plan last year (we viewed numerous plans) as to what areas or how many of the courses would still remain after the roadwork which surprisingly included roadwork on Gold, all signs were pulled so the courses and signs could be redesigned later this year after US Masters. We have created temporary signs for each event since then and staked signs were placed for the winter months at a cost of about $1,500. New standard temporary signs are on order and will be installed once they arrive. Maps are available online and in the kiosk near the pro shop door. Maps will be made available inside the pro shop and at the gate until the course revisions can be made and new permanent signs installed. Many complex and course improvements have already been made but there are a lot of new changes coming up this year. We thank you!

 

[kw83028]

I'm not up to date on this. Or really understand all that I read. What do you mean save? What hostile takeover? What were the false pretenses? What does signing the petition do for you?

This.

I don't know any of the story, along with probably 90% of people on here.

5 of us decided to play northern Indiana for the first time, for our annual DG trip this year. We were at Lemon Lake 1.5 weeks ago. I thoroughly enjoyed the 4 courses that we played. Red and Blue on Thursday, and Silver and White on Saturday. Excellent courses all they way around. Navigation would've been a complete nightmare, though, if we didn't get the current maps from Deb. Nice lady, strictly based on the two times we chatted with her.

The courses looked like they were going through transformations. Obviously the white course plays completely different than the old maps that we had. It was a pleasant surprise. I'm guessing it helped a lot that the Masters was there 2 weeks before we came. I would rate all of the courses quite high IF they had tee and next tee signs, but overall, if you have the current maps, navigation was very simple.

If there was a ton of craziness in the past, I'd like for the petition to spell it out so the rest of us, that aren't tied to the complex, can get a real idea of what's been going on. Something to form an opinion on.

 

[DiscGolfCraig]

See you tried this same tactic 2 years ago Bart. Your thread then called for a boycott. Apparently that didn't go to your liking or you wouldn't be doing the same thing now. Either let it go and find a new course to pour your efforts in, or find a way to be supportive of the owners.

 

[Bart]

The Red ROC Disc Golf Club started the first course at Lemon Lake (red) in 1998. Over the next 14 years we expanded it to the complex it was in 2013 with a multitude of volunteers herded by Hall of Famer Brian Cummings. We designed all the courses, built the paths, installed tee signs and ran tournaments and leagues there all those years. We paid for built and installed all the benches on the course. We paid for many of the concrete teepads when the parks dept ran out of money and poured them all....96 teepads in 5ish years.

Long time club member Jay Svitko and his wife were voted off the worlds steering committee (they were self appointed) in early 2013 (unanimously) but continued to act in that capacity without authorization of the club or the tournament director Brian Cummings. We were always 1 step behind and very frustrated as we were juggling the 2013 Worlds including course prep and the multitude of tasks that go into running an event of that magnitude....our 2nd Pro Worlds in 3 years. Push was coming to shove and angry words were exchanged but as the Worlds was rapidly approaching cooler heads prevailed and for the good of the event we chose to engage in that battle after the worlds. By then it was to late. The 'Flight Center' was supposed to be a club store but suddenly it was Jay and Debs store (this coincided with both of them suddenly being unexpectedly unemployed). The parks manager is mainly interested in the path of least resistence and her immediate superior in the parks dept retired in 2013 as did her boss about a year prior. Brian and the exhausted club took some time away from Lemon Lake after the worlds and the new parks dept folks aligned with Jay and Deb...possession being 9/10ths of the law and the new people at the parks department were only hearing from the Svitkos.

They won't allow us to run leagues there (they called the police once when we tried) let alone tournaments. They took over all the tournaments we ran by name and made them there own. They started the Indiana Disc Golf Museum because Indiana disc golfers would not let them have the Indiana Disc Golf Hall of Fame. There should be SOMETHING in the museum for Brian and the club but there isn't. Brian installed his first course in NW Indiana in 1986 and MANY more. Since our ouster from Lemon Lake the RRDGC has continued to grow the sport by installing more courses and continuing to improve the ones already in the ground. Freedom Park in Lowell , Rivers Edge in Munster, Riverside in Hammond, Purdue Calumet in Hammond, LRCA Church Camp in Winfield, Countryside in Portage, and 50 Acre Park in Evergreen Park, IL are some of the courses we've built and developed since 2012.

The courses at Lemon Lake are being poorly maintained according to the standards we set as a club. If you played in one of our Worlds (2010 and 2013) and played again in the Masters (2018) you would notice the deterioration.

Browse the posts in the petition for some first hand accounts of basic disc golf codes being broken ie: Call the Number on the Disc Before You Put it in Your Used Disc Bin....

When the PDGA awarded Lemon Lake a $5000 grant and the title of 'PDGA Midwest Development Center' in 2015? Brian Cummings was not invited to the ceremony....the architect of the complex. This award went to folks that don't play disc golf, the Svitkos.

This is an excerpt from my recent email to the current PDGA Director:
Below is a quote from a recent PDGA news letter. I take issue with the untruths propagated in this statement. The heart and soul of Lemon Lake are Brian Cummings and the Red ROC Club members that built it over a 14 year span. Jay and Deb's hostile takeover occurred after and during the 2013 Worlds. They've run about 6 tournaments a year for less than 5 years not 'well over 100 tournaments'. They did NOT run the 2010 Worlds and the 2013 Worlds. If Jay and Deb are your soul source of information than you are being mislead and engaging in shoddy journalism.

"US Masters Brings PDGA Major Back To Lemon Lake
Lemon Lake County Park and the Lemon Lake Flight Center in Crown Point, Indiana, have seen more than their fair share of high-level PDGA events. In the last decade alone, Jay and Deb Svitko, the heart and soul of the complex, have run well over 100 tournaments, including multiple A-tiers, dozens of B- and C-tiers, and the 2010 and 2013 PDGA Professional Disc Golf World Championships."


I will answer questions if you have them...this is a small part of the whole story. I am making as honest an account of the facts as memory permits. Please excuse any grammer, spelling or puncuation errors as this was written in one sitting.

 

[SonicGuy]

Sounds like you should make your own disc golf center, with blackjack and hookers.

 

[ru4por]

i understand and feel your frustration, but your plight is pretty common in our game. Courses are almost always built on the backs of golfers and clubs. Just as often is the blood, sweat and tears of the work taken for granted and given no credit. The current owners "have control", either fight this via legal channels or continue to do what hundreds of clubs across the country do. Use great patience and diplomacy to repair, maintain or build a working relationship with the powers that be and do the right thing. By that I mean....get to work and do what is best to golfers and the courses. Will you be given credit....likely not. Will you be underappreciated....again, likely. Volunteerism is a thankless job.

Sorry, courses are pulled all the time by private adventures, municipalities, and park systems, in lieu of dog parks, water parks, hiking trails, zip lines..... Never have the clubs and golfers who spent countless hours and money to build the course, happy.

I know you are looking for and perhaps expecting a large outpouring of support here, but many of us have lived through very similar circumstances. I think it is vital to answer the questions posed by @iDiscGolf, below. This would give everyone here a little clearer picture of what you are claiming happened.

Good luck with your plight. I hope the resolution is what is best for the area golfers.

 

[davetherocketguy]

The parks manager is mainly interested in the path of least resistence and her immediate superior in the parks dept retired in 2013 as did her boss about a year prior. Brian and the exhausted club took some time away from Lemon Lake after the worlds and the new parks dept folks aligned with Jay and Deb...possession being 9/10ths of the law and the new people at the parks department were only hearing from the Svitkos.

Um. Yeah. The Parks department basically owns the park. There's no 9/10s blah blah blah about it. They own it and it is there's to do with as they see fit. If you walk away from the situation and let the Svitkos be the only voice they hear then dun dun duuuuuuun the parks will align themselves with the Svitkos.

Oh and of course the parks manager seeks the path of least resistance. Duh. They work for a parks department. Basically almost every public servant operates in this manner.

They won't allow us to run leagues there (they called the police once when we tried) let alone tournaments. They took over all the tournaments we ran by name and made them there own. They started the Indiana Disc Golf Museum because Indiana disc golfers would not let them have the Indiana Disc Golf Hall of Fame. There should be SOMETHING in the museum for Brian and the club but there isn't. Brian installed his first course in NW Indiana in 1986 and MANY more. Since our ouster from Lemon Lake the RRDGC has continued to grow the sport by installing more courses and continuing to improve the ones already in the ground. Freedom Park in Lowell , Rivers Edge in Munster, Riverside in Hammond, Purdue Calumet in Hammond, LRCA Church Camp in Winfield, Countryside in Portage, and 50 Acre Park in Evergreen Park, IL are some of the courses we've built and developed since 2012.

They. Who they? Svitkos or the Park?

I've heard this story before and from both sides. I have no clue who to believe and when I see a situation like that I am inclined to believe there is plenty of blame to go around. The Svitkos run good tourneys there. The parks allows them to continue to manage the flight center so yeah, they must not being doing everything wrong. Still though, I'll review your petition and consider it at least.

We as disc golfers have a really hard time understanding the concept that the public park courses we work on are not our own. While the work we do is often admirable the courses we build can be taken away at any time for any reason. Why? Because it isn't our course. Want to ensure a course stays installed and in the conditions that meet your standard? Then guess what you're gonna have to buy the land yourself. Some dger's think they can work their way into ownership of a course.

 

[DavidSauls]

A lot of this going around recently.

 

[JC17393]

Want to ensure a course stays installed and in the conditions that meet your standard? Then guess what you're gonna have to buy the land yourself. Some dger's think they can work their way into ownership of a course.

Ding ding ding. We have a winner. The future of the sport is in privately-owned, pay to play courses. It is the only way to ensure courses aren't lost to non-disc golf entities.

Don't get me wrong, I love park courses too but no matter how good the relationship may be between designer/club and the park, the park ultimately owns the land and makes the final calls. Sometimes all it takes is a park manager to retire or take a new job and years of goodwill goes out the window in a blink. It's a fallacy to view all the time, money and energy invested as equity in the course, and anyone who sees things that way are just setting themselves up to be disappointed.

I feel for the folks of the Red Roc club, but really, they're fighting a losing battle. It sucks to lose control of a project you put so much into but others are right...re-direct that energy into building something new rather than futilely fighting for the old one.

 

[DavidSauls]

I feel for the folks of the Red Roc club, but really, they're fighting a losing battle. It sucks to lose control of a project you put so much into but others are right...re-direct that energy into building something new rather than futilely fighting for the old one.

Probably fighting a losing battle---unless they can convince the Parks Dept. that the Parks Department will be better off with the club in charge. Which won't include things like who takes credit for 2010 Worlds. Signatures on an online petition by a scattering of disc golfers around the country aren't going to make much of a difference, either.

And that's depending on what sort of contract the current vendors have, and when it will be up for renewal.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Probably fighting a losing battle---unless they can convince the Parks Dept. that the Parks Department will be better off with the club in charge. Which won't include things like who takes credit for 2010 Worlds. Signatures on an online petition by a scattering of disc golfers around the country aren't going to make much of a difference, either.

And that's depending on what sort of contract the current vendors have, and when it will be up for renewal.

No kidding. And if the Svitkos are making a profit for the park with the disc sales - even if they are running in the red - you might as well as be pushing rope uphill.


To the OP...

I am not signing that thing. You want my signature you're going to have to put some far more specific facts and whatnot on that petition. Evidence of wrongdoing or some such thing. Just making a blanket statement that the PDGA ought to pull their support of the Svitkos is rather ambiguous. Cite what PDGA rules they've broken. Put together some facts about how the sport has suffered in their hands.

Good luck with that though...They keep running major events every year and if they really were that bad do you think the PDGA would keep authorizing the events there? I'm guessing not. My advice, go find some other venture/cause/course or whatever for you and your compadres to pour your energies into. Looks to me like you're passionate about disc golf and have the ambition to run events and frankly that's not a bad thing. This appears to be a loosing battle and if the fight continues more it will only damage the sport more...

I seem to remember posting a similar sentiment the last time this topic came up.

 

[Bart]

Um. Yeah. The Parks department basically owns the park. There's no 9/10s blah blah blah about it. They own it and it is there's to do with as they see fit. If you walk away from the situation and let the Svitkos be the only voice they hear then dun dun duuuuuuun the parks will align themselves with the Svitkos.

The residents of Lake County own the park but yea the parks has the power.

Oh and of course the parks manager seeks the path of least resistance. Duh. They work for a parks department. Basically almost every public servant operates in this manner.




They. Who they? Svitkos or the Park?

I've heard this story before and from both sides. I have no clue who to believe and when I see a situation like that I am inclined to believe there is plenty of blame to go around. The Svitkos run good tourneys there. The parks allows them to continue to manage the flight center so yeah, they must not being doing everything wrong. Still though, I'll review your petition and consider it at least.

We as disc golfers have a really hard time understanding the concept that the public park courses we work on are not our own. While the work we do is often admirable the courses we build can be taken away at any time for any reason. Why? Because it isn't our course. Want to ensure a course stays installed and in the conditions that meet your standard? Then guess what you're gonna have to buy the land yourself. Some dger's think they can work their way into ownership of a course.

So we decided to resume running leagues at Lemon 2ish years ago. We had about 20 players show up and meet in the parking lot. Deb Svitko approached the group and handed out flyers quoting a 'no solicitor' clause in the parks manual that she claimed prohibited us from running leagues there without her permission. 60+ year old Bill Thornton (diminutive grandpa looking dude) took one of the flyers into the pro shop, laid it on the counter, told Deb 'You are sucking the life out of disc golf here' and walked out. Deb 'felt threatened' and called 911 resulting in 5 squads from 2 jurisdictions showing up. I was standing next to Ed Maldonado when the first officers exited their vehicles. Ed's face lit up as he recognized a fellow veteran and old friend. They were upset that someone would blatantly waste police time and resources. I began a dialogue with the parks department the next day including several meetings with the parks managers new boss. He agreed that Deb had over stepped her authority and the clause had nothing to do with us playing leagues there and promised to tell her to back off. The next time we ran leagues there we got 4 people....nobody wants to play in that toxic environment and leagues fizzled.

The meetings also made Jay and Deb account for 9 missing baskets that belonged to the club (they had sold one and stashed the other 9) and they replaced the 5 club baskets on the courses and returned our baskets. We never got our tournament supplies back however...scoreboards and such...or our 10 water coolers....I believe more items went with them as well but I would have to confirm that with others before I state it unequivocally.

 

[Bart]

See you tried this same tactic 2 years ago Bart. Your thread then called for a boycott. Apparently that didn't go to your liking or you wouldn't be doing the same thing now. Either let it go and find a new course to pour your efforts in, or find a way to be supportive of the owners.

Frankly if they were good stewards of the place I likely wouldn't be so vocal but the place is run down and deteriorating. There are multitudes of local player who feel cheated on payouts and disgusted by finding their discs in the used for sale bin when they are clearly marked. I encourage you to read the comments in the petition...passing 300 signatures today.

 

[Bart]

To the OP...

I am not signing that thing. You want my signature you're going to have to put some far more specific facts and whatnot on that petition. Evidence of wrongdoing or some such thing. Just making a blanket statement that the PDGA ought to pull their support of the Svitkos is rather ambiguous. Cite what PDGA rules they've broken. Put together some facts about how the sport has suffered in their hands.


The petition has been updated with the same soliloquy I posted on this thread. I encourage you to read the comments in the petition to see some first hand experiences from folks that are local or have spent time at Lemon Lake...I do understand the concept of tilting windmills...

 

[davetherocketguy]

I think you should have pursued this via small claims court if they are still holding on to tournament supplies as you allege. You could get 1k sigs on that petition and I doubt it'll change anything. Time to move on.

 

[DavidSauls]

So what is the relationship between the Svitkos and the PDGA? Or the Svitkos and the park?

In my ignorance, it sounds like most of this has more to do with the park, than the PDGA, anyway. Hard to imagine the PDGA getting involved in a vendor/club dispute.

 

[Noill]

I love it when people threaten to call the cops... I always tell them to go for it... The cops either never show up, or do and don't want to be there. Heh...

A small group shows up (20-ish people) and deb tries to kick them out by calling the popo... Haha!

With Beaver Ranch, there turned out to be an agreement in place that helped put the situation back on the rails... Here with the RRDGC and the park...was there an agreement? I caution people to think about formalizing relationships such as this... Even email can be used to show the nature of the relationship. At BR, they put in all the work, etc and got a quarantee of having the Bloom tournament. That helped protect their investment (the work hours and items donated).

 

[ru4por]

Again, the OP's only input into this discussion is still....the club and owners don't get along. Upon being told that league need approval of the steward, why not initiate positive discussions to get the approval. THAT would seem like the best thing to do for the club and disc golf in general. Perhaps a new petition calling for professional, impartial leadership of your club might be in order? Bart, you are coming off awful in this thread. You have failed to answer the essential questions posed and continue to only demonstrate anger that things have not gone your way. I don't know the story, but I am suggesting that you might not be helping the cause here.

Again, this is not a unique situation. Many clubs meet resistance and hurdles, be it owners, municipalities or land managers. The club does not have to like the people or situation. Good leadership of clubs ensures that the club members and disc golfers at large get absolutely as much as possible out of the course. Sometimes that means letting others think they are right and understanding where the decision making power lies. Suck it up, buy them dinner, buy a couple beers, make nice and be an inspiration to future leaders in your area. Most of us know this sucks, but life is not always fair. Disc golf is about fun, maybe they don't know that.....but you should. Seek the the fun, brother.