McBeth vs. Climo

[JC17393]

Did Climo have a strong forehand, or roller game? I admit I don't have much experience watching Climo play but he seemed to be primarily a backhand player in what I have seen. Paul to me doesn't have any glaring weaknesses. So Paul = GOAT to me

Did Climo need a strong forehand game? No, he didn't. He dominated without it (he did have a killer roller game, BTW). Few players in his prime had strong forehand games (Stokely and...?) so there wasn't much value in developing it.

The modern game requires a more rounded arsenal of skills because more players have good backhand and forehand games, hence Paul has developed his to each be significant weapons. Put Climo in the same environment, with the same warp-speed, fat-rimmed drivers McBeth and company are throwing and he probably develops a forehand to go with his pinpoint backhand.

It's like saying that Mike Trout is greater than Babe Ruth because he's fit and well-rounded, despite the fact that he's benefiting from knowledge (nutrition, etc) and technology (workout equipment, video for technique refinement, etc) Ruth never had access to. The comparisons are, as others have said, apples and oranges.

 

[1978]

Gretzky vs. Crosby

Jordan vs. James

The parameters in which these kind of assessments should be made don't overlap. It's just the transcendence of great players. There is (maybe ) always going to be someone that is one of a kind.

McBeth more or less equals Climo, same with other comparisons. It's a privilege we have awesome sports that evolve and players that evolve with them.

Good comparison but the problem with using other sport arguments is that our equipment and playing field has changed greatly. A basketball court is basically the same thing. Climo played on a lot of short wooded courses and shorter temp courses in parks. Go and play a 25 year old course, the differences are striking... and wow the discs these days? Its a wonder anyone could throw a sidearm during his run, so they are literally impossible to compare. It would be like comparing the best field hockey player to the best ice hockey player.

 

[KnightsDG]

I think a lot of people are forgetting that Climo won 3 world titles in this decade! Granted they are Masters division titles he still had to compete against people throwing modern tech.

 

[Karl]

Another way - and there are many - to "compare" (even if you CAN compare...or if it's worth a darn) is to figure out "percentage" of wins / placements in BIG (read: the vast majority of the great players of the time we're there) events...like WCs).
Example: A has 2 WCs out of the 6 he competed in (33%). B is 6 for 18. Nod goes to B due to longevity. C is 1 for 2. Better than 33% but is the sample pool enough? ?? And until a career is 'over' you probably can't really quantify it....

 

[Hampstead]

I can't believe this is even close. It is like the bozos that say Lebron is better than Jordan, but way worse. Climo is far and away the GOAT. McBeth will be an afterthought in 20 years, Climo will always be a legend.

Calm down, Hyper Bole. Disc golf's first million dollar man won't be an afterthought in 20 years. He'll still be the face on the Innova Traveler box.

 

[jmdaire27]

Good comparison but the problem with using other sport arguments is that our equipment and playing field has changed greatly. A basketball court is basically the same thing. Climo played on a lot of short wooded courses and shorter temp courses in parks. Go and play a 25 year old course, the differences are striking... and wow the discs these days? Its a wonder anyone could throw a sidearm during his run, so they are literally impossible to compare. It would be like comparing the best field hockey player to the best ice hockey player.

I guess I'm not one to say about basketball (although athletes have definitely grown), but hockey I can attest to. Compare equipment, especially goalie pads (and also sticks and skates and, well, everything), from Gretzky's day to today; they have come so far. Lighter, more advanced, stronger. Players, too; bigger, stronger, faster. I think evolution of the game for both hockey and DG have come very far (basketball, idk, and don't really care all too much).

The athlete comparisons I suggested were other, somewhat ambiguous, comparisons like PMcB vs Climo, in that I agree. It's hard to compare past versus present; classic vs modern. I'm on a boat where there are more than one GOAT. Maybe one (or more) per era/generation. That way we aren't attempting to either credit or discredit our past and current greats.

 

[JuanA]

There's an interesting TED talk comparing Jesse Owens' 1936 100M sprint against Usain Bolt's 2013 time. Owens would have lost to Bolt by 14 feet. When track conditions and equipment were taken into account though, Owens was really less than a stride behind.

Trying to compare athletes from different eras is difficult, so many people just use numerical benchmarks like time, or number of titles, but it really doesn't give the entire picture.

That being said, I voted for Climo. Ask me again in 10 years.

 

[SonicGuy]

Calm down, Hyper Bole. Disc golf's first million dollar man won't be an afterthought in 20 years. He'll still be the face on the Innova Traveler box.

Who will be the first million dollar man? McBeth ain't it. That's like saying I earn a million dollars (over the next 5 years). Woohoo!

 

[ryanwilli7]

You really can't compare in a fair sense between eras. Athletes really should be compared against their peers when they played. Also, the idea of greatest is such a difficult thing to measure. Some might measure championships (Climo), some May measure statistics (McBeth and his 18 down rounds and ratings), while others may look at influence on the sport. Right now, when he's on, McBeth is near unbeatable, and he is unbelievably consistent. Climo absolutely dominated an entire era, and did it while hanging drywall. If you put them up against each other at their peaks, and conditions and equipment were equal, I think you'd have a hell of a round. Great athletes in any sport are great because of their competitive drive. When challenged, they rise to it. If I had to chose between the two, I'm picking Climo. He has had a much larger, and lasting, impact on the game. Kids who weren't even alive when he was dominating are buying plastic with his name on it. I think McBeth is on the same path, and may end up having a bigger impact, but for now I'll go with Climo.

 

[Hampstead]

Who will be the first million dollar man? McBeth ain't it. That's like saying I earn a million dollars (over the next 5 years). Woohoo!

Welcome to the wonderful world of sports contracts. Plebes like paralegals talk about annual salary. Athletes talk about overall value of a contract. But you knew that already. Woohoo!

 

[SonicGuy]

Welcome to the wonderful world of sports contracts. Plebes like paralegals talk about annual salary. Athletes talk about overall value of a contract. But you knew that already. Woohoo!

That's like not true at all, and it is a little sad that you think it is that way.

 

[lyleoross]

Climo definitely wins, his ears were way bigger than McBeth's.

Cringe factor settles this for me. Note, I'm not making a universal judgment, this is what matters to me. I never once saw Climo over push or mentally fail, ever. He might not win, but he stuck to his game plan. I've seen McBeth fail mentally several times. Not just the over push when he's down stokes and has nothing to lose.

It's easy to write that, but we didn't get to watch Climo the same way we watch McBeth. There wasn't nearly as much footage. I look forward to someone posting Climo mental fails.

 

[Hyzflip10]

Climo definitely wins, his ears were way bigger than McBeth's.

Cringe factor settles this for me. Note, I'm not making a universal judgment, this is what matters to me. I never once saw Climo over push or mentally fail, ever. He might not win, but he stuck to his game plan. I've seen McBeth fail mentally several times. Not just the over push when he's down stokes and has nothing to lose.

It's easy to write that, but we didn't get to watch Climo the same way we watch McBeth. There wasn't nearly as much footage. I look forward to someone posting Climo mental fails.

That's the spirit :|

 

[Hampstead]

That's like not true at all, and it is a little sad that you think it is that way.

Slow day, eh?

 

[lyleoross]

That's the spirit :|

It's the internet, everyone is an expert in finding the mistake you've made. I found Climo's mental toughness to be the best I've ever seen.

 

[Hyzflip10]

It's the internet, everyone is an expert in finding the mistake you've made. I found Climo's mental toughness to be the best I've ever seen.

I missed the sarcasm, thought you were actually soliciting negative feedback, lol.

 

[SonicGuy]

It's the internet, everyone is an expert in finding the mistake you've made. I found Climo's mental toughness to be the best I've ever seen.

To be fair, Climo was also much less of a gentleman than McBeth. The way Climo handled the epic Cale jump putt here in MN still grinds my gears.

 

[lyleoross]

To be fair, Climo was also much less of a gentleman than McBeth. The way Climo handled the epic Cale jump putt here in MN still grinds my gears.

That is a really good point! And yes, in terms of whom I'd want to have a beer with, McBeth wins. Thanks for the reminder!

 

[zontar]

That is a really good point! And yes, in terms of whom I'd want to have a beer with, McBeth wins. Thanks for the reminder!

I would have a beer with whomever is buying, though I'm not convinced either would buy. I'd buy Barsby a round, though.

 

[Jimb]

I look forward to someone posting Climo mental fails.

Video courtesy of. Bro. Dave.