Memorial Drama

[Pwingles]

When I get a card that's not totaled, I hand it right back to whoever turned it in. "Hey, you wanna check this?"

This would personally be my first course of action, i think

 

[smyith]

It's really important and obvious for people to realize that the "drama" comes from a PDGA tournament technicality. The PDGA needs to re-evaluate arbitrary stroke violations like this. Not all stroke violations are unreasonable, but this particular stroke violation is. Every single PDGA rule should be written and enforced with the intent of guaranteeing accurate and fair tournament results. Instead of unfair stroke violations that could very possibly lead to inaccurate tournament results, they should embrace an alternate penalty structure for non-play related infractions.

For example, Will should have been fined $25 for not writing his total down. $25 for the PDGA and the whole tournament isn't put on the line because of something that isn't related to how he performed.

Absolutely ridiculous. Sorry but you are totally wrong!!!! It is in the rule books and is a very clear rule. Their doesn't need to be any alterations. He got caught up in the excitement and screwed up. He should've acted like a professional from beginning to end and he didn't. He even owned up to it.
On top of that, this rule hardly ever comes up.
What happened to people taking responsibility for their actions? Why must blame be put on someone else? "I can't add my score up properly so its the PDGAs fault for their dumb rule that everyone else has no problem following."
Next thing you know you are going to want their to be a fine for courtesy violations.

 

[joegraham]

Keeping score is well detailed in General Rules of Golf, subsection Tournament Procedures. You have to total the round score:

805.02 Scoring
The player listed first on the scorecard(s) bears primary responsibility for picking up the group's scorecard(s).

Players in the group shall rotate the scorekeeping task proportionally, unless a player or a scorekeeper volunteers to keep score more and that is acceptable to all members of the group.

After each hole is completed, the scorekeeper shall call out each player's name. The called player shall answer with the score in a manner that is clear to all players of the group and the scorekeeper. The scorekeeper shall record that score and read it back, in a manner that is clear to all players of the group. If there is any disagreement about the score a player reports, the group must review the hole and attempt to arrive at the correct score. If the group cannot reach consensus on the player's score, they shall consult 805.01.

The scorekeeper shall record the score for each player on each hole as the total number of throws, including penalty throws. The total score for the round shall also be recorded as the sum of all hole scores, plus any additional penalty throws. The use of anything other than a number (including the lack of a score) represents an incorrect hole or total score and is subject to penalty as described below.

Warnings and penalty throws given to a player for rules infractions shall be noted on the scorecard.

At the end of the round, each player shall sign the scorecard to attest to the accuracy of the score on each hole as well as the total score. If all players of the group agree that a hole score was recorded in error, the score may be changed prior to the scorecard being turned in. Players whose scorecards are turned in unsigned accept responsibility for the scores recorded.

All players are responsible for returning their scorecards within 30 minutes of the completion of a round. The round has been officially completed for all competitors when the last group on the course has completed their final hole and has had, in the Director's opinion, reasonable time to travel from their final hole to tournament headquarters. Failure to turn in the scorecard on time shall result in the assessment of two penalty throws, without a warning, to each player listed on the late scorecard.

After the scorecard is turned in, the total score as recorded shall stand with no appeal, except for the following circumstances:

Penalty throws may be assessed at whatever time the infraction is discovered until the Director declares the tournament officially over or all awards have been distributed.

If it is determined that the total score was incorrectly recorded, either by an error on a hole score or by an error in totaling the hole scores, including omission of the total score, the director shall add two penalty throws to the correct total score. These penalty throws are not added when the Director corrects a player's score for other infractions determined after the player had turned in an otherwise correct scorecard.


http://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/805-tournament-procedures/80502-scoring

 

[smyith]

When I get a card that's not totaled, I hand it right back to whoever turned it in. "Hey, you wanna check this?"

I played a tournament many years ago, where a player turned in his scorecard and literally 2 min later walked back and said "hey I think I may have the wrong score down, can I see my card again and double check?" The TD actually said No. He hadn't even checked it yet. The player did in fact write the wrong score and was penalized. I have not been to one of these TDs events since.

 

[ZAMson]

The one and only time I managed to take DFL, last in Rec, the worst golfer on-site that day -- I achieved it by missing my tee time and several holes, and later miscounting my score. It was a career highlight of f'kup behavior, and I'm glad the penalties hit me that bad. Splashed out an ace worth $300+ that day too

 

[rebecca d]

I really like that idea

 

[rebecca d]

I really like that idea

The only problem with fining is that disc golfers rarely have the money to pay. And then we are left to chase the player around trying to collect the money which means more time at the office. Also, we have the rules in place.....add your score.....sign your scorecard...and then you have nothing to worry about.

I wish we could fine but what happens if the player is an AM or a Pro who doesn't cash?

 

[Pwingles]

The only problem with fining is that disc golfers rarely have the money to pay. And then we are left to chase the player around trying to collect the money which means more time at the office. Also, we have the rules in place.....add your score.....sign your scorecard...and then you have nothing to worry about.

I wish we could fine but what happens if the player is an AM or a Pro who doesn't cash?

Only fine Pros, onle at A tier or higher. Well, at least NTs. Otherwise apply strokes as per the normal rule.

As far as not having cash, idk. Report to pdga like you would for other things, and give them a timeframe. Also, payment goes to TD/staff. $50 max, more along the lines of $20-30, or maybe higher for a televised/streaming event with more coverage

 

[crashzero]

Gotcha.

In fairness, I thought JC was responding to a fairly inflammatory post. About penalties being silly and having too many rules and so forth.

Wow, inflammatory? I'm far from getting inflammatory.

I never said anything about people not keeping score, the topic is about the player totaling the score up, which is completely trivial.

So, TD's are not double checking scores? Only then can I see the point of the requiring the player to do it.

 

[techn9cian4life]

Have a question since we're on the topic of charging strokes to a player when a penalty is committed. Last October in a tournament I played in, couple guys were rallying to give me that +4 penalty for being "late". When in actuality, the TD decided he wanted to start the players meeting 15 minutes early because he "thought every one was there..". Players meeting was scheduled for 9:30am and tee offs were scheduled for 9:45am. I arrived at ~9:25am. The meeting was over and every one was getting in to their card groups when I pulled up and got out of my car. Immediately 2 guys in my card started yelling at me that I was late and had already received the +4 on my card. The TD immediately stepped in and said the +4 hadn't been applied yet, but I was, in fact, late since they decided to start the meeting early. Does that seem fair? They didn't apply the +4 so I didn't think much of it.. but if they had applied the +4 I would of been pretty pissed because I got 2nd place by 3 strokes.

 

[rebecca d]

Only fine Pros, onle at A tier or higher. Well, at least NTs. Otherwise apply strokes as per the normal rule.

As far as not having cash, idk. Report to pdga like you would for other things, and give them a timeframe. Also, payment goes to TD/staff. $50 max, more along the lines of $20-30, or maybe higher for a televised/streaming event with more coverage

Ok...I see your point and I'm not totally disagreeing with you BUT...would it be more effective and a learning experience if:

A) You take responsibility and add and sign your scorecard or you could perhaps lose the tournament.

OR

B) You pay $50 and turn around and win over $3000 because you added your score wrong. Why add it?

I just believe that players should have the maturity and responsibility and not have to be hand held through the process. We have the rules in place, they know the rules (or should know) and until they are changed, these are the consequences.

 

[techn9cian4life]

Ok...I see your point and I'm not totally disagreeing with you BUT...would it be more effective and a learning experience if:

A) You take responsibility and add and sign your scorecard or you could perhaps lose the tournament.

OR

B) You pay $50 and turn around and win over $3000 because you added your score wrong. Why add it?

I just believe that players should have the maturity and responsibility and not have to be hand held through the process. We have the rules in place, they know the rules (or should know) and until they are changed, these are the consequences.

I agree. A-Rod was fined like $50,000 or somethin for using steroids... but he signed a 6 figure contract, so I don't think it bugged him that much. Same thing if you're a pro DGer that just won $3,000.. $50 of that isn't a lot.

 

[smyith]

I agree. A-Rod was fined like $50,000 or somethin for using steroids... but he signed a 6 figure contract, so I don't think it bugged him that much. Same thing if you're a pro DGer that just won $3,000.. $50 of that isn't a lot.

if you really think about it, had Will lost that playoff it would have been an $1100 penalty. So in the Pros their is already on monetary penalty.

Makes me sad tho haw many people want their to be so much hand holding. Its pathetic really

 

[techn9cian4life]

if you really think about it, had Will lost that playoff it would have been an $1100 penalty. So in the Pros their is already on monetary penalty.

Makes me sad tho haw many people want their to be so much hand holding. Its pathetic really

That's why I'm saying... a stroke penalty is more effective than a fine. I can be fined that $50 for not signing my score card cause I just won $3000. Rather than, I only won the tournament by a stroke... but I forgot to fill out my score card properly so now I just lost the tournament cause of my mistake... I'll make damn sure I signed that score card haha

 

[tbird888]

I agree. A-Rod was fined like $50,000 or somethin for using steroids... but he signed a 6 figure contract, so I don't think it bugged him that much. Same thing if you're a pro DGer that just won $3,000.. $50 of that isn't a lot.

He signed more like an 8 or 9 figure contract, but I get what you're saying. He essentially had to hand over his "daily walkin' around money".

 

[JC17393]

Have a question since we're on the topic of charging strokes to a player when a penalty is committed. Last October in a tournament I played in, couple guys were rallying to give me that +4 penalty for being "late". When in actuality, the TD decided he wanted to start the players meeting 15 minutes early because he "thought every one was there..". Players meeting was scheduled for 9:30am and tee offs were scheduled for 9:45am. I arrived at ~9:25am. The meeting was over and every one was getting in to their card groups when I pulled up and got out of my car. Immediately 2 guys in my card started yelling at me that I was late and had already received the +4 on my card. The TD immediately stepped in and said the +4 hadn't been applied yet, but I was, in fact, late since they decided to start the meeting early. Does that seem fair? They didn't apply the +4 so I didn't think much of it.. but if they had applied the +4 I would of been pretty pissed because I got 2nd place by 3 strokes.

You can't be late at a tournament, at least in terms of being penalized, until play actually begins. In a shotgun start, play begins at the start horn, not when cards are handed out (whether that happens early/on-time/late is irrelevant). If you were there in time to start the round with the rest of your card, you are not late. Those players were either messing with you or were angling to take advantage of a made up rule. And had the TD assessed the penalty that these players wanted to stick you with, you'd have been well within your rights to be pissed.

 

[techn9cian4life]

He signed more like an 8 or 9 figure contract, but I get what you're saying. He essentially had to hand over his "daily walkin' around money".

Oh ya I got my numbers mixed up lol 9 figured I believe. Like 270mil

 

[techn9cian4life]

You can't be late at a tournament, at least in terms of being penalized, until play actually begins. In a shotgun start, play begins at the start horn, not when cards are handed out (whether that happens early/on-time/late is irrelevant). If you were there in time to start the round with the rest of your card, you are not late. Those players were either messing with you or were angling to take advantage of a made up rule. And had the TD assessed the penalty that these players wanted to stick you with, you'd have been well within your rights to be pissed.

Thats what I figured. They were being completely serious though

 

[DavidSauls]

Among the drawbacks to a fining wrong or incomplete scorecards is the question of, "Is this the only violation that involves a fine?". If the PDGA were fining people instead of assigning penalty strokes because this is a "non-play" violation, what other violations would have fines? How much would those fines be?

 

[Mulligan McGee]

I have a question. In a tournament like this where there are literally thousands on the line does the td NOT total the score top card? Cuz everything I've read on here makes it sound like its all on the player.