Movement in top 10

[biscoe]

as a side note, i wonder if any other course designer has had multiple courses in the Top 10 at the same time, or even just anytime ever. Selah almost doesn't count but Harmony Bends will put John with 3 courses in the Top 10 at once and that probably won't change any time soon. sounds like Flat Creek has a chance at the list and if 20 people ever make it to Frost Valley then Mr. Houck could boast having designed half of the Top 10.

Pretty sure Chuck had more than one Highbridge course in the top 10 at one point ages ago.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The thing about ratings and reviews here is that design quality, however perceived, usually takes a back seat to the perceived quality of course equipment, signage, amenities and maintenance. This makes sense, since for many, it's your playing experience that drives your rating versus the more abstract evaluation of design quality which fewer players have the experience to quantify.

The ratings for courses done by experienced designers like Houck, McDaniel, myself and many others are subject to how much money our clients spend on course infrastructure, clearing, planting and maintaining in the beginning and ongoing. This is out of our hands in most cases in the same way the original architect for your home isn't responsible for whether it is maintained, upgraded or gets run down over time.

The rankings of our courses over time are more subject to how well our clients upgrade, maintain and market their courses independent of the initial design. As Biscoe points out, the Highbridge courses are a high profile example of a great start with declining maintenance depressing their more recent ratings. I'm just happy those who do visit there seem to still have a good if not great experience to not knock down the ratings too much.

 

[DavidSauls]

The thing about ratings and reviews here is that design quality, however perceived, usually takes a back seat to the perceived quality of course equipment, signage, amenities and maintenance. This makes sense, since for many, it's your playing experience that drives your rating versus the more abstract evaluation of design quality which fewer players have the experience to quantify.

Not to mention, the land available to you.

Great land, and freedom given the designer to use it, is a huge factor in course quality.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Not to mention, the land available to you.

Great land, and freedom given the designer to use it, is a huge factor in course quality.

It's true that a course with an average design on excellent terrain will likely rate better than an excellent design on weaker property. Some of my best design efforts were on weaker properties and 9-hole layouts knowing that the course would still be perceived as average at best.

 

[Cerealman]

for the next 3 reviews of Harmony Bends:
5+5+5 or 5+5+4.5 and it beats out Flip for #2
5+4.5+4.5 or 5+5+4 and it ties Flip and Flip stays at #2 (more reviews)

Technically ... Flip City is currently at 4.8504, so if Harmony Bends only generates 14 points in its next three reviews (5+4.5+4.5 or 5+5+4), it would have a rating of 4.8500 and be in third place anyway.

Though, I don't know how many decimal places Tim goes to break a "tie" in the ratings.

Forgive my math nerdiness. I'm hoping Harmony Bends debuts at No. 2 anyway. It's a GREAT course.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

It's true that a course with an average design on excellent terrain will likely rate better than an excellent design on weaker property. Some of my best design efforts were on weaker properties and 9-hole layouts knowing that the course would still be perceived as average at best.

Let me preface this with, I've never designed a course myself... but I've often thought about the concept behind Chuck's statement. I've seen some particularly blessed parcels of land where you could seemingly throw 18 tees and 18 baskets up in the air, and wherever they randomly landed, you'd probably end up with a decent course. Some of the best design work I've seen has been on relatively flat & open courses. Creating something out of nothing takes real vision and creativity.

That said, I can't stress enough that before putting a course on a really great piece of property, please get an experienced designer with a good track record to take a look at the property & proposed layout. I'm convinced that make the difference between ending up with a 3.0/3.5 or a 4.5/5.0 type of course.

Put another way, it could be the difference between ending up with a course players may not be willing to pay to play repeatedly, or a course that every local will gladly purchase an annual membership for, and travelers will happily pay to play.

 

[roggenb3]

How in the heck is Maple Hill all the way down to 15? Oh yeah, the pay increase thing...nevermind.

 

[DavidSauls]

How in the heck is Maple Hill all the way down to 15? Oh yeah, the pay increase thing...nevermind.

One P.O.'d patron, I believe.

 

[DavidSauls]

Technically ... Flip City is currently at 4.8504, so if Harmony Bends only generates 14 points in its next three reviews (5+4.5+4.5 or 5+5+4), it would have a rating of 4.8500 and be in third place anyway.

Though, I don't know how many decimal places Tim goes to break a "tie" in the ratings.

Forgive my math nerdiness. I'm hoping Harmony Bends debuts at No. 2 anyway. It's a GREAT course.

A great demonstration of how things have changed since the early days of this site. So many top-flight courses that tiny fractions of a rating point make a difference in position. How much real difference is there between #5 and #20, these days?

 

[NDABRUSH]

Technically ... Flip City is currently at 4.8504, so if Harmony Bends only generates 14 points in its next three reviews (5+4.5+4.5 or 5+5+4), it would have a rating of 4.8500 and be in third place anyway.

Though, I don't know how many decimal places Tim goes to break a "tie" in the ratings.

Forgive my math nerdiness. I'm hoping Harmony Bends debuts at No. 2 anyway. It's a GREAT course.

I believe a tie in the rating goes to the course with the greater number of reviews.

 

[biscoe]

It's true that a course with an average design on excellent terrain will likely rate better than an excellent design on weaker property. Some of my best design efforts were on weaker properties and 9-hole layouts knowing that the course would still be perceived as average at best.

Agree completely- the course i usually cite as my best design work is a 9 holer that will never be rated higher than 3 by players.

 

[Olorin]

Agree completely- the course i usually cite as my best design work is a 9 holer that will never be rated higher than 3 by players.

Mr. Biscoe, which course are you talking about?

 

[biscoe]

Mr. Biscoe, which course are you talking about?

Betty Queen Center- Louisa, VA. A postage stamp of woods very well utilized if i say so myself.

 

[Olorin]

Betty Queen Center- Louisa, VA. A postage stamp of woods very well utilized if i say so myself.

For some reason I was wondering if that was the course you meant. I've played there, but it's been a while so I will have to go back and look at my review notes.

(Totally unrelated to the course... on my way there, while close by I was checking directions and didn't notice that I was in a school zone until a cop gave me a $170 speeding ticket! Bummed me out.)

 

[armiller]

I just got to play one recently that had that nice combination of terrain and design... at least to me! Right now it's at 4.89 with 9 reviews, though I'm not sure that will continue to the 20 review threshold. So much fun, though! And Biscoe, there was a nice little 9 hole on the same property that only got a 3.5 from me. It's not a knock on the course, it's just the fact that it's only 9 holes. Ratings are so tough and inevitably subjective.

The cool thing about DGCR is that without even looking, I can tell you that I would definitely enjoy playing the top 200 courses, let alone the top 10. It's been said a million times, but it's really splitting hairs when you're comparing some of these courses and going down to the tenths place, let alone hundredths...

And Mr. Houck, it's always a pleasure to get your insight. I've been looking for the right time to get down to the Selahs and Trey Ranch. Thanks!

 

[biscoe]

And Biscoe, there was a nice little 9 hole on the same property that only got a 3.5 from me. It's not a knock on the course, it's just the fact that it's only 9 holes. Ratings are so tough and inevitably subjective.

Oh- I'm not complaining about the fact that the Queen Center has an average rating. It is a fairly average course- I would not rate it higher than 3 myself. I was just using it as an example to Chuck's point that the best design jobs are not necessarily the best courses. A monkey could design a 4.0 rated course at Hawk Hollow or Lake Marshall, maximizing the quality of a course on a more difficult property is more challenging design-wise.

 

[sidewinder22]

I just got to play one recently that had that nice combination of terrain and design... at least to me! Right now it's at 4.89 with 9 reviews, though I'm not sure that will continue to the 20 review threshold. So much fun, though!

I wish it had more pictures, but does look pretty sweet from the few pics.

 

[armiller]

Oh- I'm not complaining about the fact that the Queen Center has an average rating. It is a fairly average course- I would not rate it higher than 3 myself. I was just using it as an example to Chuck's point that the best design jobs are not necessarily the best courses. A monkey could design a 4.0 rated course at Hawk Hollow or Lake Marshall, maximizing the quality of a course on a more difficult property is more challenging design-wise.

Very true. I guess I'm just agreeing that the number doesn't necessarily imply the designer or design is good or bad.

 

[DavidSauls]

Heck, I know someone whose two designs are rated 4.40 and 1.17. The land and circumstances have a lot to do with it.

 

[armiller]

I wish it had more pictures, but does look pretty sweet from the few pics.

Just added a couple. It looks even nicer right now. Unfortunately, I failed to get them all right side up.