No Limits on Disc Design

[Dr. Bogey]

You could throw it like a ball, and if you tucked it correctly, it'd stay until it hit something (Think Matt Bell with the blowfly).

This sounds interesting. Anybody know where I can see video of this?

 

[autocrosscrx]

This sounds interesting. Anybody know where I can see video of this?

Noah Meintsma does it several times in the latest doubles match that can be found on the youtube pages of Luke Humphries and Gavin Rathbun.

 

[Ryan P.]

This sounds interesting. Anybody know where I can see video of this?

 

[Horsman]

After watching that, I really want to put a blowfly in the bag

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

About a quarter century ago, a buddy of mine took his Stingray and cut it into the shape of a sawblade. I remember him using it at Ludington's "Beauty" course once. We were all pretty intoxicated.

 

[Jay Dub]

About a quarter century ago, a buddy of mine took his Stingray and cut it into the shape of a sawblade. I remember him using it at Ludington's "Beauty" course once. We were all pretty intoxicated.

Like the one in the crazy golfer's hand on this stamp?

 

[adamgservo]

There was another recent tournament (maybe Jonesboro??) where Matt Bell did this on a putt. He was like 40ish feet away but was in some thick foliage. So he balled up the disc and threw it instead of trying to use a normal putting motion. If I recall correctly, he almost made the putt.

 

[Discman80]

Koosh balls! Like throwing a tennis ball, but way less roll away potential.

Eh not really. It's really just for attention to get people to watch your YouTube videos because it's not controllable like a ball. It's a ball then it forms back into a frisbee pretty quickly and then it could go anywhere haha

 

[Discman80]

Disc golf equipment has come a long way. Don't think there would be many differences. Instead of making the disc heavier (more stable) can just change the width of the rim. It's all relative. You could make some changes and allow stuff like boomerangs but would it still be called "disc golf"?

 

[jakebake91]

Eh not really. It's really just for attention to get people to watch your YouTube videos because it's not controllable like a ball. It's a ball then it forms back into a frisbee pretty quickly and then it could go anywhere haha

Oh I know what you're talking about haha. I was simply suggesting that if you're worried about rollaways with a tennis ball, the rubbery stringy koosh balls are still heavier balls that don't really roll much. And I reckon I can throw them as far as a tennis ball.

We might have different things in mind.

 

[Discman80]

Oh I know what you're talking about haha. I was simply suggesting that if you're worried about rollaways with a tennis ball, the rubbery stringy koosh balls are still heavier balls that don't really roll much. And I reckon I can throw them as far as a tennis ball.

We might have different things in mind.

Agreed, rollaways shouldn't be a worry when the disc is gummier than Gumby. Only practical use I could think is what someone mentioned, getting out of jail. But Matt Bell is seeking attention haha. On video, he will throw it when he should be able to legitimately go after the basket with a controllable disc.

 

[jakebake91]

Agreed, rollaways shouldn't be a worry when the disc is gummier than Gumby. Only practical use I could think is what someone mentioned, getting out of jail. But Matt Bell is seeking attention haha. On video, he will throw it when he should be able to legitimately go after the basket with a controllable disc.

I think you either in the wrong thread or have seriously missed the boat on the conversation that was taking place......

 

[reezyF]

As someone who can throw a football decently I saw the Matt Bell video when it first came out and instantly went to infinite and got a blowfly to try it myself.(good work Matt!)
As things usually go a professional makes it look a bit easier than it really is... but still fun to try. The key is keeping it tucked while its still in flight which mine doesnt like to do very well.
I do bag the blowfly now for any extra hilly courses - but not for the football throw.

 

[jakebake91]

As someone who can throw a football decently I saw the Matt Bell video when it first came out and instantly went to infinite and got a blowfly to try it myself.(good work Matt!)
As things usually go a professional makes it look a bit easier than it really is... but still fun to try. The key is keeping it tucked while its still in flight which mine doesnt like to do very well.
I do bag the blowfly now for any extra hilly courses - but not for the football throw.

I've been tempted to give this a whirl too. For fun, if nothing else. I can throw a baseball farther than I can throw a frisbee, so Im curious how far i could toss this. It wouldn't be the most ridiculous disc I've bought......

 

[Ryan P.]

Disc golf equipment has come a long way. Don't think there would be many differences. Instead of making the disc heavier (more stable) can just change the width of the rim. It's all relative. You could make some changes and allow stuff like boomerangs but would it still be called "disc golf"?

I think there are a fair amount of improvements to be made, though I don't know what they are. The EV-7 Penrose that came out earlier this year supposedly has a flight plate that varies in thickness. I can see subtle changes happening that improve disc flight. People are creative and will figure out ways to do it.

 

[uncle pennybags]

What if we made a disc that had snap in rings on the wing and center of the disc. These rings could be weighted differently in order to change the flight of the disc. That way a disc could have different flight with the same hand feel.

 

[Moose33]

What if we made a disc that had snap in rings on the wing and center of the disc. These rings could be weighted differently in order to change the flight of the disc. That way a disc could have different flight with the same hand feel.

If I remember the original Andro from Ozone had this idea. You could get it with the heavier inner or outer ring, but after the first run they abandoned the idea. Think it was expensive to make.

 

[Moose33]

This is barely on topic, but a few years ago I had a dream that I was at a fly mart type situation and there was a guy selling a bunch of odd creations like we are describing.

Asymmetrical discs, ones with saw blade like protrusions on one side, comically large discs, discs with a hole in the flight plate like a painters palate, all sorts of oddities.

At the time I was somewhat prone to buying gimmick discs like the Epic, and that dream sort of pushed me off that path.

 

[uncle pennybags]

If I remember the original Andro from Ozone had this idea. You could get it with the heavier inner or outer ring, but after the first run they abandoned the idea. Think it was expensive to make.

I know. I have some. I was just being a goof.

They did some production runs, but abandoned the interchangeable system and just made the inserts fixed.

 

[SocraDeez]

I wonder how heavy you could get before your start to see diminishing returns

Me too! The glitz & glam of modern discs give the impression of serious change, but the PDGA standards for max. weight, min. diameter, & weight-to-diameter ratio have remained largely unchanged since the 80s!

Sure, there's been significant progress in plastic composition & beveled edges/rim characteristics, and I'd say the jury's still out on "overmold" tech. (though MVPs marketing material might disagree). But modern golf discs are generally the same size & weight as their early-days-of-disc-golf predecessors. How has this standard withstood the test of time? Is it optimal for playing golf with flying discs?

It might could be, or it's at least close enough to withstand terminal criticism. For anyone who's interested in some more context, I'll plug this post (warning! self-quote) on how the PDGA disc design standards relative to "max. weight" came to be. It's a story without many guys in glasses & white coats, working with wind tunnels etc. in sterilized lab settings.

The idea of "max. weight" played an absolutely critical role when disc golf was first shaping itself into a sport in the early 80s. How much should a golf disc be allowed to weigh? How much ought a golf disc to weigh?

But let's start with an easier question: Why was the first disc manufactured explicitly for golf - the Wham-O Night/Midnight Flyer - a glow disc? Because glow discs were heavier! The addition of glow-in-the-dark phosphorous doubled as a weighting agent, and, compared to their non-glow-plastic-same-mold counterparts, they flew better for golf. Per Ed Headrick, the Midnight Flyers were 40-45% glow material mixed with polyethylene plastic. "It really was a coincidence they were made of glow material. Moonlighter plastic was used to make the discs weigh more." This was the distinguishing characteristic of the Midnight Flyers sold by Ed & DGA - the heavy plastic recipe. Midnight Flyers came in various molds (e.g. Wham-O 22, Wham-O 80) but used the same plastic. The opposite is true for golf discs made today! For early plastic addicts, the Midnight Flyer price went up as the disc weight went up - $5.50 for a ~124 g Wham-O 22 & $7.50 for a ~196 g Wham-O 80.

So the people wanted heavy discs, and in whizzed Jan Sobel to give the people what they wanted - the Puppy, 179+ grams with many over 200 g & christened such because early disc golfers referred to cute girls at the parks as "puppies." Innova founder Dave Dunipace recalls Sobel's contribution to the development of golf discs: "This is what Sobel really brought into disc golf and should be credited for: He and the Brand X guys raised the weight limit of golf discs. He let the genie out of the bottle with the heavy ballistic discs."

Jan also gave the people what they didn't know they wanted: smaller heavy discs. Jim Palmieri, the keeper of flying disc history, writes: "Jan Sobel and his Puppy marks an extremely important juncture in the development of the golf disc. It began the evolution of the golf disc. Before that, the golf disc was merely stock Frisbee discs pumped up with weight. When Ed Headrick's heavy 40 molds got popular, disc golf evolution was merely a thought that bigger was better. What followed was a variety of Frisbee discs getting pumped up. No one thought of going the other way with the disc size, except Jan Sobel. Until he came up with the 21 cm Puppy, golf disc evolution was stagnated. We just assumed that the big heavy discs were what we had and were the way to go. No one was really thinking that there might be an alternative. Except Jan." Jan recounts: "I remember thinking the 23 [cm disc] was an improvement on the 24 [cm disc], so I thought smaller might be better. I was going to make a 22 and just decided to go down one more step to a 21. I guess I had a stroke of brilliance coming up with a disc that turned out to be the right size."

The Puppy, the hot young thing at the park, quickly became popular with players. On the arrival of the Puppy, Joe Feidt writes in Disc Golfer Magazine: "The real fun starts when the delighted disc golfers throw the new discs that Jan is selling - it's obvious from the get-go that they go way farther than the Midnight Flyers. More projectiles than the float-in-the-air Midnight Flyers, these new discs travel far and straight and then drop like a stone when they lose spin." The Puppy, however, was banned by Ed Headrick, of course, for use in competition at the first PDGA sanctioned World Championships in 1982; only Wham-O mold discs would be allowed. At a meeting of regional pros/PDGA sales reps before the Championships, Ed even staged a heavy disc intervention: Joe Feidt writes, "He arranged for a speaker, a psychologist, to lecture the pros about the intrinsic beauty and benefits of light plastic; nobody was buying it. The meeting was dragging on, it was warm and sunny outside, and everyone was itching to get out of that room and throw some discs."

The first to invest in the idea of "max. weight" golf discs, Ed was now concerned that discs had become too heavy (& certain ones too popular). There was bystander safety to consider with most courses being in multi-use public parks. He polled the members of the newly formed PDGA on weight & size restrictions of golf discs. Joe Feidt writes: "Out of the 2000 (or so) he mailed, 269 were received by the June 30 deadline. The most votes (91) came in for 8 grams per centimeter. The next most popular choice (67 votes) was 8.5 grams. The final weighted average came out to 8.3178 g/cm... Players also approved a 200-gram weight limit and a 21-cm minimum diameter." This was the first major official PDGA decision determined by player vote.*

*Jeff Homburg, who now helps enforce this disc design standard as chair of the PDGA Technical Standards Working Group, boycotted the 1983 World Championships in protest. Jeff recounts: "I did start a petition and got a lot of people to sign it," said Homburg. "I sent it to the people in charge of technical standards...but I wasn't able to convince them they should allow the heavier discs."

How much should a golf disc be allowed to weigh? Remarkably, the 200 gram max. max. weight, 21 cm min. diameter, & 8.3 g/cm weight to diameter standard for PDGA approved golf discs is still in place.

The next major decision determined by player will was to allow non-Wham-O golf discs - specifically, Jan's smaller, heavier Puppy & Dave Dunipace's smaller, heavier, bevel-edged Aero, the new new hot young thing at the park - to be used in competition at the second PDGA sanctioned World Championships, held in Huntsville, AL in 1983. Per PDGA.com/history: "Tournament Directors Tom Monroe #33 and Lavone Wolfe #580 didn't ask Ed—they told Ed—that any legal-weight disc, including Eagles [Aeros] and Puppies, could be thrown. This was the first time the players prevailed in a contest of wills with Ed. It was this Huntsville controversy more than anything else that persuaded Ed to decide to slowly relinquish control of the PDGA to the players."

How much ought a golf disc to weigh? This is most difficult to measure. Lavone Wolfe, the first PDGA Technical Standards chair, recalls: "[Jan] pushed ballistics forward with his penchant for heavy discs. I was one that fought to allow manufacturers like him to work to find the balance between weight, aerodynamics, and ballistics. We lost because of fear of injury and lawsuits. I believe that today the weight limits should be lifted and the players will naturally throw what flies best."

In short: Early disc golf players eagerly snapped up "max. weight" discs because they were better suited for playing golf than their catch-predecessors. Concern for public safety (and perhaps for the sales of existing, lighter weight discs) motivated a nascent PDGA to create weight & size standards for golf discs. It's hard to say if these ought to still be the standards. Food for thought: most modern pros prefer to throw "max. weight" - that is, PDGA-allowed max. weight given the mold - discs.

Sources (in addition to already linked blog posts):

https://www.pdga.com/history

Jim Palmieri - A Chain of Events: The Origin and Evolution of Disc Golf

http://www.omagdigital.com/publicat...ew=articleBrowser&article_id=578868&ver=html5

http://www.omagdigital.com/publicat...w=articleBrowser&article_id=1409586&ver=html5

https://www.flyingdiscmuseum.com/blog/2020/10/midnight-flyers-in-all-their-glowry