Noob in North Cackalacky needs a little help

[Rastnav]

Greetings from the great Tar Heel state of North Carolina. Not born here, but raised up since about 1976.

So, I'm basically a noob to disc golf. I'd thrown a disc at some courses a time or two, but never had anything that wasn't a starter pack disc. Found an old DX Leopard in the garage when I was cleaning up and basically discovered the actual sport just before the lockdowns took hold as something that would get me out of the house and active. I think "Champs vs. Chumps" sealed for me that this was something I should put time into. I can't really explain it, but it made me feel really happy to see that kind of interaction in a sport.

I envy all of you that have found this thing much earlier than I, and I hope that when things go back to normal I can experience some of the community that seems to be endemic to the sport.

The course closest to me is Cornwallis Road Park in Durham, NC. That's now closed due to the lockdown, but the UNC course is open.

The Cornwallis course is one that you can easily get around with only a putter. It's very technical, with lots of narrow lanes, most holes under 200, and just three over 200, max 225. I basically throw a putter, one stable mid-range and one understable mid-range. I think my PB is 3 down from the shorter (red) tees. I got a really satisfying ace (my one and only) on hole 4 that's only 114, slightly uphill, with two sturdy pine trees framing the basket. Threw it straight into the basket.

The UNC course is muuuch longer (even longer than on this site, as they are reworking the course, with hole 1 gone, hole 2 substantially changed and an added hole 19 and 20. I think everything from 15 on is also reworked.

UNC beat me up pretty gosh darn good the first two times I've played it. I can throw a putter around 200 with an x-step, 175 standstill.

And that's about how far I can throw my mid-ranges, too. Fairway drivers much the same. I assume that means my form is simply awful, in some way, but, I can't seem to find any sort of drills I can really go through on my own to try and correct that.

Finding practice space right now feels like a little bit of a challenge as well. But there is a park with an astroturf soccer field near me that I think goes about 400 corner to corner.

So, where would you advise a 50 year old noob to start? (Aside from the putting practice I'm doing in the back yard)

Many thanks for any thoughts.

 

[BryanC]

This thread has links to a bunch of videos with form info:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119328

The biggest problem for me is being overwhelmed by how much info is out there. The top link from that thread is short and I've found it really useful advice.
https://youtu.be/XkOE6TAMrY4

 

[Rastnav]

I agree that the information is overwhelming.

But, it's not just that. It's that everything seems poorly laid out for the beginner. In the technique and strategy section, the very first link in the "Technique Sticky (read first)" offhand mentions "OAT" as if I'm supposed to know what it is, and implies I can easily throw 380 with a "half hit" backhand. The video downloads on the link are also broken.

The beginner instruction I've been able to find is "Disc golf involves throwing a disc into a basket" level stuff. Everything else seems to imply I've been throwing and studying form for years. I just thought there might something step by step out there, but I guess not.

 

[armiller]

I agree it's overwhelming. And yes, that page is definitely geared for people who have already devoted a significant amount of time to developing their form. To be honest, there's still a lot on those pages and videos that I still don't get. I have decent enough form to be a Intermediate or low-level Advanced player, but I simply haven't prioritized developing my form over playing casual rounds. Some of the form videos from the gurus still go over my head, but they've helped others go from 350' to 500', or that kind of thing.

In the end, all this advice is only useful as far as it's applicable to where you're at. You can go through every single one of those videos now, and then again in 3 years, and they will all help to differing degrees and help differently at each stage in your disc golf development. You're not going to go from throwing 100' to being Eagle McMahon in a day, and most of us struggle to get that "easy" 380'.

In the end, simple advice like this is some of the most helpful for me. Avoid the "herky jerky"


I always recommend newbies film themselves. The main thing is to watch yourself and see what jumps out as being different from folks that do it better than you. If you want, you can always post a video of your throw so others can chime in, but the main thing is for you to see it yourself.

I also think finding some good "beginner discs" is important. DX Leopards are great, but they can also get really flippy really fast, and then they're just frustrating. There are lots of threads (e.g. in this newbie forum) discussing the topic of beginner discs. There are tons of good options, but finding something that you can grow with is always helpful. Anything in the speed 3 to 6-7 range may work.

You may even consider buying a basket for yourself during these times, as playing in public courses is somewhat controversial if not prohibited. If you have the funds (and some space), there are any number of good baskets out there for just over $100.

Good luck and welcome to the addiction.

 

[armiller]

This is a bit impractical, but I think it's helpful at the outset: Understand that the disc golf throwing motion, particularly backhand, is particularly complex and not exactly the same as any other athletic motion (although tennis backhands and baseball swings have some parallels). The objective, simply, is to leverage your body's core muscles to the disc from the ground up. In the end, this involves lots of things, so that's why these videos talk about weight shift, bracing, hip loading/rotation, swing plane, wrist loading, grip, and "the hit," among other things. Understanding that this is complex seems to help get rookies through some of the early frustration. Eventually, the goal is a smooth and apparently effortless motion that is extremely powerful and can launch these delightful plastic discs several football fields.

 

[Rastnav]

Thanks for the thoughts, armiller.

I'm halfway decent at ball golf, so the idea that "there is a complex set of things impacting the outcome of your swing" makes perfect sense. But I also know a series of three lessons that can teach you proper swing fundamentals, that I go back to every time my swing gets out of whack, something that I'm not seeing out there for disc golf (although I'm guessing it exists somewhere). I guess part of it is that everyone thinks they can throw a frisbee and no one thinks they can hit a golf ball. With disc golf you aren't ever starting from a blank slate.

I did video myself this morning and the words "Octopus falling out of a tree" and "Bowling ball trying to throw a frisbee" come to mind. I see some obvious errors, but no real clue how to actually fix them.

I did buy a basket, an Innova Skillshot. I also bought a whole load of putters (I think have like 13 different ones at this point) to try and find one that "clicked" I seemed to have settled on the Discraft Challenger mold as one that works pretty well for me for putting. I also really like it for short par 3s and upshots. I've bought that in 4 different plastics now (DX, Jawbreaker, Soft X-Line and Z Flx), just to see what I like best. Then I'll buy 5 or 10 of them for putting practice.

I really wanted to settle on the Luna or the Fierce but they didn't quite work as well. Probably less expensive that way anyway. ;-D

The two mid-ranges that have done me well so far are an Innova GStar Wombat and a Latitude 64 Opto Compass, so neither of them should beat in to quick, although that GStar plastic might not be what I really need as I take it that makes the disc even flippier. Still, I really like that disc right now.

I just bought a "Rancho?" Star Roc, a GStar Leopard, and a Champion Tee Bird. Basically messing around without knowing what I'm really doing.

I have a feeling I bought some of these discs in the "wrong" weights. My putters are all max weight (except for one really light MVP Electron Soft Atom that is a floaty 159 g that makes for a great get out of trouble disc). Max weight I think was the right call there.

But my other disks are all in 170 - 174 g range as well, and I'm thinking that might be a mistake? The Teebird is 164 g, but I haven't really thrown that one yet.

Anyway, any further thoughts are welcome. I appreciate you reading through my term paper length trip through my discs.

 

[armiller]

I'm halfway decent at ball golf, so the idea that "there is a complex set of things impacting the outcome of your swing" makes perfect sense. But I also know a series of three lessons that can teach you proper swing fundamentals, that I go back to every time my swing gets out of whack, something that I'm not seeing out there for disc golf (although I'm guessing it exists somewhere). I guess part of it is that everyone thinks they can throw a frisbee and no one thinks they can hit a golf ball. With disc golf you aren't ever starting from a blank slate.

I did video myself this morning and the words "Octopus falling out of a tree" and "Bowling ball trying to throw a frisbee" come to mind. I see some obvious errors, but no real clue how to actually fix them.

You're on to something there. One way people work on their disc golf swing is by eliminating some moving parts. E.g. standstill throws, or a "one step drill" if you look in the technique section on this site.

Here are a couple classic videos that may help:
Driving Instruction- Will Schusterick is one, but he still assumes the learner has some experience. Incidentally, this video is one reason I over-focused on the reach back when I first started.
This Paul McBeth and Nate Sexton Clinic is pretty helpful, as are several other recorded pro clinics on YouTube

But again, these videos often help you with one aspect of your swing while helping new issues arise. If you start following your throw using videos, you'll notice it's a bit like whack-a-mole.

Btw, the Challenger is a solid mold, an oldie but a goodie. Just because the others are newer and thrown by famouser people doesn't mean you need to.

The two mid-ranges that have done me well so far are an Innova GStar Wombat and a Latitude 64 Opto Compass, so neither of them should beat in to quick, although that GStar plastic might not be what I really need as I take it that makes the disc even flippier. Still, I really like that disc right now.

I just bought a "Rancho?" Star Roc, a GStar Leopard, and a Champion Tee Bird. Basically messing around without knowing what I'm really doing.

I have a feeling I bought some of these discs in the "wrong" weights. My putters are all max weight (except for one really light MVP Electron Soft Atom that is a floaty 159 g that makes for a great get out of trouble disc). Max weight I think was the right call there.

But my other disks are all in 170 - 174 g range as well, and I'm thinking that might be a mistake? The Teebird is 164 g, but I haven't really thrown that one yet.

Anyway, any further thoughts are welcome. I appreciate you reading through my term paper length trip through my discs.

Those sound like good starters. That Teebird will be pretty overstable at first, but that Gstar Leopard will be money for learning hyzer flips and straight shots. The mids sound good to me.

I wouldn't worry too much about the weights. When people drop weights it's usually because they feel their arm is too weak or because they're trying to get a few extra feet of distance. Those will be fine, but maybe you can consider that when you get some more new ones.

 

[Rastnav]

Thanks for those thoughts.

Btw, the Challenger is a solid mold, an oldie but a goodie. Just because the others are newer and thrown by famouser people doesn't mean you need to.

Yeah, I'm familiar (from other sports) that there is a mistake people make that goes something like "It's not me, it's my plastic." That's why I just wanted to try a bunch of molds. Still there is comfort in thinking you have the "best" thing out there. Just wouldn't be best for me.

this video is one reason I over-focused on the reach back when I first started.

I could probably stand to concentrate a little more on reach back, if my videos are anything to go by. Very "pinched", definitely not a straight reach back. But maybe that's starting in the wrong place.

In any case, I see, in threads like this, an example of what you are talking about, concentrating on just one drill to start, for example Brad Walker's Closed shoulder drill.

Are you saying you think that's too "broken apart" to start with as a new player? Or would that be a place you would start?

Many thanks.

 

[Rastnav]

Oh, and that McBeth/Sexton clinic seems really good. I recognize those faults they are highlighting from watching my video of myself. The toe point, the overreach, no angle integrity. Now I just have to figure out how to undo them.

I almost want to go Jennifer Allen to try and get my reach back to the right place. I'm definitely under rotating and over reaching. Her form seems built to prevent both of those. But I have a feeling it's not that simple.

 

[armiller]

I could probably stand to concentrate a little more on reach back, if my videos are anything to go by. Very "pinched", definitely not a straight reach back. But maybe that's starting in the wrong place.

In any case, I see, in threads like this, an example of what you are talking about, concentrating on just one drill to start, for example Brad Walker's Closed shoulder drill.

Are you saying you think that's too "broken apart" to start with as a new player? Or would that be a place you would start?

Many thanks.

I think that's just fine to start on one thing, especially if that thing "clicks" or fits a need in your swing. I probably started with that Bradley Walker video myself. You could probably find my videos from when I started asking for advice. If anything, they would show how unqualified I am to give form advice! Eventually, I stopped videoing. It takes a lot of dedication and time to make the progress that clard has over the years. It's commendable.

Even focusing on reach back probably has its merits. I just think it's important not to lose the forest for the trees. The goal in perfecting any component of the throw is to efficiently provide controllable energy to the disc. Anything that achieves that is probably worth doing! I think it's normal to improve in one swing component only to realize there's now another area for improvement. That's part of what keeps us coming back.

 

[Rastnav]

I just think it's important not to lose the forest for the trees.

Amen.

Random observation, Ricky Wysocki doesn't appear to actually reach back with a straight arm. It's flexed at the elbow. I was watching the 2019 Beaver State Fling final round coverage and noticed that on a slow-mo of one of his drives.

We'll see what I can make out of that closed shoulder drill.

 

[armiller]

Michael Johansen is a pro that has a very simple and compact swing, but very smooth and very effective. He's not one of the longest throwing pros by any means, but he throws Comets and putters as well as or better than anyone. Particularly relevant as a North Carolinan!

My $0.02 on the reach back is that you need to learn to rotate your hips/core. If you're doing this, you're going to naturally have some kind of reachback. It does seem like big arm pros (Eagle, Simon, McBeth, Drew) change their reachback significantly on full power throws. Their longer reachback seems to help "load the spring" better for those long throws.

By the way, one very simple drill that helped me was the "water bottle drill" from hyzerunibomber. It helped me start to "feel" the swing. Part of all this is just throwing mud against the wall to see what sticks. You will get help from things that didn't help me, and vice versa.

 

[Pymm]

Hi. I'm from Greensboro. Love the UNC course. I am an old guy, too, and have been playing about four years. I don't have a lot of form advice for you but you have definitely started well by getting a basket (helped my putting tremendously) and doing fieldwork. I agree with you concerns about disc weight. Almost all of my drivers are in the low to mid 160s with my mids being high 160s to low 170s. It has certainly helped me. Keep at it, have fun, and if you are ever in Greensboro or High Point, let me know. We have a ton of courses up here and I'd be happy to play a round or two with you.

 

[Rastnav]

I tried that closed shoulder snap drill today. I think it worked really well. I was getting flat ~120-140 shots just off the short pull and snap.

I wanted to video myself, but the soccer field I was on went from "some kids on the other end" to, kids over here, jogger over there, Dad and his daughter over there, another soccer player over here and an old lady is now throwing a ball to her dog. I need a new field or I'll need to figure out when nobody is there.

Then I have to figure where to go from there. I guess adding hips?

 

[Rastnav]

Hi. I'm from Greensboro. Love the UNC course. I am an old guy, too, and have been playing about four years. I don't have a lot of form advice for you but you have definitely started well by getting a basket (helped my putting tremendously) and doing fieldwork. I agree with you concerns about disc weight. Almost all of my drivers are in the low to mid 160s with my mids being high 160s to low 170s. It has certainly helped me. Keep at it, have fun, and if you are ever in Greensboro or High Point, let me know. We have a ton of courses up here and I'd be happy to play a round or two with you.

Absolutely. I'm really looking forward to see all of the great courses that the sport has to offer once Covid finally stops "plaguing" us.

One thing I want to do at some point is play Cedarock Park in Burlington. Not too far from Greensboro, depending on where you are. I think that may have been the first course I ever saw, long ago, probably when I was teenager. I've "played" that course many years ago, probably in my 30s, but I had no real clue what I was doing.

 

[Pymm]

Absolutely. I'm really looking forward to see all of the great courses that the sport has to offer once Covid finally stops "plaguing" us.

One thing I want to do at some point is play Cedarock Park in Burlington. Not too far from Greensboro, depending on where you are. I think that may have been the first course I ever saw, long ago, probably when I was teenager. I've "played" that course many years ago, probably in my 30s, but I had no real clue what I was doing.

Yeah, we play Cedarock and Wellspring every few weeks. Both are great and completely different from each. Cedarock is pretty wide open and Wellspring is classic NC woods golf. Nice to have two awesome, very different courses in the same park.

 

[BrotherDave]

Cedarock is a good course for learning how to play because it's open which is forgiving of the early releases and grip locks that vex beginners and also because it's easier to focus on your form when you're not worried about hitting tight gaps in the woods.

Goal #1 is to not hurt yourself. That means no strong arming/muscling the disc and to follow through. If you're not following through naturally, you know you're not doing it right.

The hardest part for a beginner is learning to feel the hit. You can try to emulate the pros all day but if you're off just the slightest bit it all falls apart. Making the light bulb go off is really difficult. It's been so long since a lot of pros had their eureka moments that very few of them do a good job of helping others get theirs (lots of pros have been throwing frisbees since they were kids now so they're even worse at teaching).

Cedarock is about 30 minutes from me so I can meet up with you one weekend if you'd like. I can show you how to implement things like weight shift and bracing that you have to figure out before any of the usual or advanced technique stuff makes any sense.

 

[Rastnav]

Cedarock is a good course for learning how to play because it's open which is forgiving of the early releases and grip locks that vex beginners and also because it's easier to focus on your form when you're not worried about hitting tight gaps in the woods.

Basically the opposite of Cornwallis Rd (my "home" course). Lol. But, I actually think it's not so bad, because the easiest way for me to hit gaps is to stop trying to throw hard. Not so good for learning how to get distance though, as the course is so short.

Goal #1 is to not hurt yourself. That means no strong arming/muscling the disc and to follow through. If you're not following through naturally, you know you're not doing it right.

Easier said than done, but I definitely take your point.

Cedarock is about 30 minutes from me so I can meet up with you one weekend if you'd like. I can show you how to implement things like weight shift and bracing that you have to figure out before any of the usual or advanced technique stuff makes any sense.

Once we stop being plagued, I will definitely take you up on this. There is really no substitute for in-person feedback.

Many thanks.

 

[Rastnav]

(Apologies in advance for the book. This is me making sort of a progress journal, but if you feel like reading and offering suggestions, I'm always all ears).

Did a bunch of throwing in a field at the nearby school today. A little frustrating, but good work. I have a hard time telling whether I'm doing the right things.

I somehow got a DX Challenger that's a little beat in to glide out to 230 or so from a standstill one time. No real clue what I did. Otherwise my standstill my standstill putters tend to be in the 150-180 range. My shoulder closed snap drill putter throws are about 140 - 150. I feel like I need to cut down which putters I am throwing with though. Since I have so many different molds right now, and they all seem to release and fly a little different, at this point it feels like that's hurting me.

I spent a bunch of time working with my mids and fairway drivers as well. Some stand still, some one step, and some 3 step X-step (i.e. starting my run up with my right foot).

I have to thank @deyo7 (not sure if there is a way to tag people on this forum or not). He suggested playing around with Bratten's 2 finger grip ( https://youtu.be/pO5zH_jQYjQ ), and that feels way more comfortable to me than a fan grip or power grip. Somehow it just feels right. Plus my middle finger was starting to get pretty beat up from the disc ripping out on a fan grip. Not sure how, or whether, to apply that grip to a putter throw.

My midranges are now going anywhere from 200-230. That gstar wombat now feels like it's too flippy, although I'm sure some of that has to do with bad form. I'm pretty much throwing the Roc straight, without really losing it left. At some point I'll really need to work on where the discs are going, hitting lines, but I guess at the moment I'm just trying to get a workable pull/stroke/whatever you call it.

The DX leopards are turning over quite a bit. I need to work on release angles as I really don't have a whole lot of control over that right now. If I really try for a hyzer release I end up starting it really high and really right, because I'm trying to finish "up".

I'm no longer losing the GStar Leopard to the left. I got what is a PB of 250 out of today, a fairly flat shot that flipped up and pretty much stayed straight the whole time. I'd say all of the fairway drivers are generally going 220-230. I bought a GStar Teebird to go with the Champion one, and a got some nice solid straight shots, with a nice solid fade at the end. Even the Champion Teebird felt like I could throw a "real" shot with it.

So, I guess I must be making progress, but I guess I was expecting that would be more noticeable from a distance perspective. I guess maybe it is and I'm just expecting too much. Rome wasn't built at night ... or something.

 

[Rastnav]

Miracles do occur.

In ball golf, there is the idea that every round has "one shot" that brings you back to play again, no matter how disgusted you were with your overall play.

Today I had that experience with disc golf. I was just getting beat up. Nearly every tee shot was hitting first available tree. When I didn't, I'd leave my upshot well outside circle 1 and miss the putt. I was literally making bogey on almost every hole. I lost a (brand new) disc that I could have sworn I saw land. Just nothing really going right.

Then, about 2/3s of the way through my round I somehow managed to uncork a drive that beat my previous personal best by 60 feet, as measured by UDisc, and I landed it in the fairway. Sure, it was only 320, but that's a big number for me.

Then, a few holes later, I somehow parked, I mean literally underneath the basket, a 280 yard hole. Didn't see the whole flight, so maybe I got a lucky roll, but I'll take it. The next hole I put a wombat out pin high, although 70 feet left, on a hole that supposedly also measure 280. Those 3 shots, and a few decent putts from 20 feet, salvaged the day.

Somehow I have got to figure out how to reliably start the disk on the right line, especially early in the round.