On the edge of professional Disc Golf

[Royal Hill]

Ooh, let me add this example. It's a us euro crossover example.

Southern France. City park... Open gravel courts for pétanque. (bocce equiv).

Ok, so it's free to use those courts. I get that by looking. But there's no way I'm going out there and just going to start playing! No way! Look.. There's old crusty guys playing. They are really into it. They seem passionate about what they are doing. They are likely out there most days, if not everyday. Probably playing for years... Maybe they are even "pros"!

I can't just walk out there myself. It looks like I might make a mistake,A faux pas, or find myself using someone's "area". Big time intimidating. But no intimidating coming from them... I am the one bringing the perceived intimidation in this example. They could be the nicest guys ever!

Now... If there was a little kiosk and my regional guide book said that I could go to the kiosk and place a few coins in the appropriate slots and use/rent a court for an hour... I'd totally do it. Suddenly I'd be emboldened to try it out.

 

[Tpro]

It's a long story...

Wham-O was a toy company, and toys are notoriously boom/bust. They had retailers screaming for hula hoops that they couldn't make fast enough one month, then had a warehouse full of them they couldn't sell the next.

Ed Headrick had the idea that if they could move the Frisbee from the toy market to the sporting goods market, they could create a more stable future for the company. Problem was, there was no such thing as Frisbee sports.

So Ed made them up.

He swung a bunch of Wham-O advertising dollars into an organization he created called the International Frisbee Association (IFA.) The IFA started running "competitions" but they were mostly events where people Ed recruited competed for Wham-O's money so they could be promoted as athletic events. A lot of the competitors were on the Wham-O payroll or got vehicles or other support from Wham-O so they could travel around and do Frisbee demonstrations to promote these new Frisbee sports. From afar it looked very grass roots, but when you dug deeper it was all a mirage propped up on Wham-O's advertising budget.

Being a corporation, Wham-O had the kind of pull to get other corporations to advertise at IFA events. It was a gravy train and must have been really cool for the guys who got to enjoy it. They had big events at the Rose Bowl, Wham-O pulled strings to get people on Good Morning America...it looked and felt like a big deal.

It was a house of cards, though.

Wham-O was sold around 1982-83ish to Kransco. Kransco made those Power Wheels toy cars. At Wham-O the Frisbee was king; it was their top seller. At Kransco, Power Wheels were king. Kransco had no interest in paying hippies to play Frisbee. The gravy train was no more.

Once Kransco turned off the corporate money, the whole thing collapsed. It was all propped up on that money. The WFDF showed up a few years later so people could still compete, but all the money was gone.

After the fall of the IFA, disc golf has tried to re-write it's history as this game separate from the IFA, but that doesn't follow reality. Ed Headrick started the PDGA as the disc golf counterpart to the IFA and ran it like he had run the IFA. It was totally under his control and his major corporate partner was Wham-O. Wham-O made the Midnight Flyer. Wham-O sponsored the big events. The famous 1979 $50,000 Huntington Beach tournament? Find a picture of the guy signing the winners check; it was one of the Wham-O partners. Ed Headrick at DGA and Stork Roddick at the IFA worked together to push disc golf; it was very much part of the Wham-O corporate advertising of the Frisbee as sporting good plan.

The modern player-run PDGA dates back to 1983. The PDGA version is that Ed "graciously turned over control of the organization." The reality is that Ed jumped off a sinking ship. With the IFA money gone, he knew the PDGA as it had been created was as dead as the IFA. He let the players have it; the only difference between what happened to the player-run PDGA and the WFDF at that time is that we didn't have to change the organization's name.

Of course the players wanted to keep making a living playing Frisbee, so they took over the PDGA and went about looking for somebody to replace Wham-O's money. They probably thought they could. I mean, how hard could it be? The problem was that once Ed let go of the iron fist and stopped protecting Wham-O's interests, somebody could actually make that beveled golf disc that Wham-O never made. A little start-up in California got the patent for that, and a little start-up didn't have the resources to prop up professional disc golf. Once they started pitching disc golf to advertisers that didn't have a financial stake in disc golf, they found out how small and unattractive a group we were to advertisers.

So that past with the big events at the Rose Bowl? It was a mirage. Ever since 1983 we have been hoping for a cash cow to replace Wham-O. We are still waiting...

People HATE hearing this BTW. Ive heard every year since Ive been playing that Disc Golf is going to Explode (from someone new or someone who has some revolutionary idea) and Im sorry but its just not true :doh:. We dont have the Cash and our Image will always be "abunch of hippies in the woods." You know what? Im OK with that..

 

[Three Putt]

People HATE hearing this BTW. Ive heard every year since Ive been playing that Disc Golf is going to Explode (from someone new or someone who has some revolutionary idea) and Im sorry but its just not true :doh:. We dont have the Cash and our Image will always be "abunch of hippies in the woods." You know what? Im OK with that..

Yeah, I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but so far as I can tell we are waaayyy off from a sustainable professional tour. Short of sponsorship, short of venues, short of spectators...it's all just so far away from reality IMO.

Each new wave of players comes in and bites down hard on that PDGA dream of a sustainable professional tour, then gets disillusioned when it doesn't happen. That stinks becasue so much has happened in the sport that is great. The sport is growing, just not the professional sport. I wonder if we will ever get to a point where we can just give up on a sustainable professional tour and be happy with what we have.

What is the line Dee Dee Ramone says at the start of End of the Century? "Anybody else would probably be happy if they had what we have." I feel like that about disc golf a lot.

 

[JTacoma03]

Or maybe it's because people like yourselves aren't open to opportunities when they're placed in front of them? Maybe you're afraid of control being wrestled away from the powers that be and put into new hands?

...because I'll tell you what I hate. I hate when people deflect onto others what is inherently their own set of problems or issues with what is happening.

If people like Steve Jobs said "you know what, this apple thing will never take off because I tried one before and failed" half of you wouldn't even have a computer to access this site. In that case, he even got fired by his own company, later to be brought back on and make it the mega corporation it is today.

The bottom line is, there's a difference between exuberance for its own sake, and deliberate, thoughtful business planning for the future. IF you have the inability to distinguish between the two then the problem doesn't lie with the big thinkers, it lies with you.

 

[JTacoma03]

I would add this to the rental disc/ p2 play (family or otherwise) discussion.

The asking of a use fee of an activity does something well aside from the fee level itself. (the amount of the fee is in many ways inconsequential) It, for many potential users, legitimizes the activity. I saw this hinted at during the great post earlier questioning how bowling or mini golf would work if in a city park and you brought your own equip.

Family activities need that service angle to work. Thats the real product... The service part of it. Making it possible, clean, assumed to be safe, something they can do without "already knowing how it works".

Intimidation of the unknown is a bigger barrier than cost by far. I invite people to play quite often. I know for sure they are never going on their own. They are intimidated by the fact that it's free and in a public park. I think if I told them it was located (x) and "you go, pay the guy at the booth and they will get you going... " They'd actually go and play. They distrust this thing called disc golf in part because it's free. ...there is a questioning when something does not seem to play by the rules of everything else in the world....

These are some really good points - a great example of what I mean by creating an experience. Nice post.

 

[Three Putt]

Or maybe it's because people like yourselves aren't open to opportunities when they're placed in front of them? Maybe you're afraid of control being wrestled away from the powers that be and put into new hands?

...because I'll tell you what I hate. I hate when people deflect onto others what is inherently their own set of problems or issues with what is happening.

If people like Steve Jobs said "you know what, this apple thing will never take off because I tried one before and failed" half of you wouldn't even have a computer to access this site. In that case, he even got fired by his own company, later to be brought back on and make it the mega corporation it is today.

The bottom line is, there's a difference between exuberance for its own sake, and deliberate, thoughtful business planning for the future. IF you have the inability to distinguish between the two then the problem doesn't lie with the big thinkers, it lies with you.

Lol...you're an angry guy, aren't you.

So what is my problem with what is happening? If somebody actually has a plan that is going to result in the spectators and revenue needed to make professional disc golf viable, I'm not going to be in the way. I've just never heard anyone tell me anything that sounds like it is going to work and when I ask WTH this "thing" is I get told that "I can't tell you any details becasue a lot of things are still in the works, but trust me something big is happening." :\ I've been told that for about 20 years, so excuse me if I'm skeptical that there is a deliberate, thoughtful business planning for the future. It sound like the same wishful thinking smoke that has been blown up my skirt for forever.

I'm not afraid of the future. I've advocated blowing up what we do and starting over for years. I've been saying for decades that shutting out the parks and recreation profession from disc golf programming is a mistake and that we as players need to loosen the grip of "disc golf by disc golfers for disc golfers" mentality that has segregated us and kept the power in the hands of the "powers that be" that you seem to think I'm afraid might lose it. That we disagree about what the future will bring is just that; a disagreement. If you have no respect for me and my opinions, whatever. Just don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Three Putt]

These are some really good points - a great example of what I mean by creating an experience. Nice post.

If I may...these experiences do not happen at most of our courses becasue most of our courses are on public land and controlled by parks and recreation agencies. We as disc golfers have deliberately shut parks and recreation out of programming these courses. We want the control for ourselves so our clubs can run PDGA sanctioned events. Because they are shut out of the activity, they have no incentive to create an experience at these courses. The baskets go in and they mow the grass. The lack of "creating an experience" is in large part a result of who we are and how we have tried to control everything ourselves.

IMO bringing parks and recreation into the fold and turning over recreational programming of the courses to them would go a long way toward the actual landowners of our courses caring about the experience they are providing.

 

[Okie-J]

Three Putt, mind if I condense that last post and put some words in your mouth?

JTacoma03 - Shut up or put up.

 

[Jay Dub]

JTacoma03 - Shut up or put up.

That's where it's at. If Three Putt is wrong prove it by something besides an angry post on a disc golf forum...or is something in the works you can't tell us about?

 

[BgWvDave]

Lol...you're an angry guy, aren't you.

Just quoted because I got a kick out of it.

 

[Tpro]

Lol...you're an angry guy, aren't you.

So what is my problem with what is happening? If somebody actually has a plan that is going to result in the spectators and revenue needed to make professional disc golf viable, I'm not going to be in the way. I've just never heard anyone tell me anything that sounds like it is going to work and when I ask WTH this "thing" is I get told that "I can't tell you any details becasue a lot of things are still in the works, but trust me something big is happening." :\ I've been told that for about 20 years, so excuse me if I'm skeptical that there is a deliberate, thoughtful business planning for the future. It sound like the same wishful thinking smoke that has been blown up my skirt for forever.

I'm not afraid of the future. I've advocated blowing up what we do and starting over for years. I've been saying for decades that shutting out the parks and recreation profession from disc golf programming is a mistake and that we as players need to loosen the grip of "disc golf by disc golfers for disc golfers" mentality that has segregated us and kept the power in the hands of the "powers that be" that you seem to think I'm afraid might lose it. That we disagree about what the future will bring is just that; a disagreement. If you have no respect for me and my opinions, whatever. Just don't put words in my mouth.

-Thankyou

 

[Cgkdisc]

Three Putt, Cgkdisc and many others simply support the wisdom that "The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result." In order to see a fast improvement in the professional DG world, previously untested break-though ideas will likely be required, not just incremental improvement in elements like courses, media coverage and payouts.

 

[Okie-J]

I think it's so funny these new guys show up and just think that somebody should save DG or that DG should just blow up. No clue what it took to get all the courses we enjoy today in the ground. Worse yet, no clue who got all them courses put in.

They play for a year, learn how to throw a proper anhyzer or finally get a hyzer flip to work and next thing that pops in their heads is visions of being the greatest. If only someone would sponsor them and if only every tourney they played in would pay them $50,000.

 

[joecoin]

Question; how has the parks and recreation profession been shut out from disc golf programming?

 

[Cgkdisc]

Minimal effort has been made to develop and add disc golf curriculum to the college education programs for Park Recreation majors so they know how to run DG programs. Same thing with Landscape Architecture majors with course design, installation and management. The current tournament payout system pays out too much to players so the same model cannot be used by Park Depts to afford running events because they have to pay their people. In other words, when they run amateur events for other sports, they have good turnouts with just ribbons or trophies as awards. Several Park Depts who have tried running DG events or leagues with just ribbon awards, get little to no turnout. The fact that DG players are willing to run events and leagues essentially free has shut out the Park and Rec Depts from DG programming.

 

[biscoe]

Three Putt, Cgkdisc and many others simply support the wisdom that "The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result." In order to see a fast improvement in the professional DG world, previously untested break-though ideas will likely be required, not just incremental improvement in elements like courses, media coverage and payouts.

Oh come on Chuck! You really know that we just haven't been doing it right ...naive is the word rather than angry.

 

[Three Putt]

Question; how has the parks and recreation profession been shut out from disc golf programming?

Minimal effort has been made to develop and add disc golf curriculum to the college education programs for Park Recreation majors so they know how to run DG programs. Same thing with Landscape Architecture majors with course design, installation and management. The current tournament payout system pays out too much to players so the same model cannot be used by Park Depts to afford running events because they have to pay their people. In other words, when they run amateur events for other sports, they have good turnouts with just ribbons or trophies as awards. Several Park Depts who have tried running DG events or leagues with just ribbon awards, get little to no turnout. The fact that DG players are willing to run events and leagues essentially free has shut out the Park and Rec Depts from DG programming.

Chuck has the basics. Very little has been done to get disc golf courses included in park master plans. Very little has been done to educate park maintenance professionals to the unique landscaping needs of disc golf courses. The ridiculous amateur payout system where volunteers + sponsorship is needed to make a minimal payout is unrealistic for a park department that is going to have to pay somebody all day to TD. Clubs don't want to work with parks departments to support their events, they want to ridicule them to make sure their competition goes away. The PDGA makes money from clubs running sanctioned events and have a financial incentive NOT to reach out to the parks and recreation profession that already has insurance and will for the most part run small local non-sanctioned events. So we whine about not being mainstream while everything we do pushes us away from the mainstream into our own little cocoon. We want parks departments to put in courses, go away and let us do our own thing and then bitch about the course maintenance they don't do on the courses we have shut them out of the operation of. Brilliant.

 

[Three Putt]

I think it's so funny these new guys show up and just think that somebody should save DG or that DG should just blow up. No clue what it took to get all the courses we enjoy today in the ground. Worse yet, no clue who got all them courses put in.

They play for a year, learn how to throw a proper anhyzer or finally get a hyzer flip to work and next thing that pops in their heads is visions of being the greatest. If only someone would sponsor them and if only every tourney they played in would pay them $50,000.

I think we get misunderstood.

I'll use that movie as an example. When I saw the trailer for the movie I was skeptical that it was actually going to see the light of day. I wanted it to see the light of day. It looked cool. I would have bought it if it was released. I wasn't rooting for it to fail. I was just skeptical.

As time went on it turned out that the movie was another idea without enough money to make it a reality. So my skepticism was proven out. Am I happy about that? Not at all. I wish I was wrong and I had a copy of a cool disc golf movie that I was boring my kids with. I'm just not at all surprised that I don't.

I think that skepticism that some old timers who have heard it all a dozen times before have is interpreted as rooting for failure. Thinking they are probably going to fail and rooting for them to fail are different things. Whatever this "thing" is that nobody call tell me about that is magically going to make everything better is, I'd be happy as a clam if it worked. I just don't have any reason after all this time and all the empty promises I've heard to believe it will.

 

[DavidSauls]

I think that skepticism that some of old timers who have heard it all a dozen times before is interpreted as rooting for failure. Thinking they are probably going to fail and rooting for them to fail are different things. Whatever this "thing" is that nobody call tell me about that is magically going to make everything better is, I'd be happy as a clam if it worked. I just don't have any reason after all this time and all the empty promises I've heard to believe it will.

That's certainly where I am --- a skeptic who would love to be proved wrong.

I'm certainly not opposed to anyone trying to take disc golf big time.

I'm reluctant for my membership organize to blow too many resources on what strikes me as a pipe dream, though.

 

[DavidSauls]

"membership organization"