Par Talk

[brutalbrutus]

I pm'd udisc-josh about whether they keep a record of teetimes and/or finish times. I wouldn't expect a quick answer though...

 

[Cgkdisc]

Hey Steve, it be cool to see a comparison of the guys who played most/all of their rounds before the rain today...

Based on spot checks over the years, players can play as well or better in the rain versus dry. The key factor differentiating performance seems to have more to do with higher wind than rain. If it's a gentle rain with minimal wind, it may be they play more conservatively, throw slightly shorter distances and make fewer mistakes thus leading to the same or slightly better scores.

 

[Steve West]

DGPT - Discraft's Portland Open presented by Bevel Craft Brewing Blue Lake 10,220 ft

SeePost 3751 for comparison to 2014 Worlds.

 

[lyleoross]

Santa Cruz Masters Cup presented by Innova - National Tour, Delaveaga Disc Golf Course

Par for MPO was set perfectly – if pouring rain is ordinary weather conditions. If not, holes #8a, #13, and #17 may be slightly generously parred.

FPO should get to play #4 and #14 as par 4s.

The one thing these charts say to me is that hole structure is important. While par is set correctly, by your reasonable calculation, a vast number of them, 18 out of 24, barely make the standard. From what I saw, holes were adjusted to somehow make the course better? It felt like the adjustments just made the course easier.

 

[biscoe]

The one thing these charts say to me is that hole structure is important. While par is set correctly, by your reasonable calculation, a vast number of them, 18 out of 24, barely make the standard. From what I saw, holes were adjusted to somehow make the course better? It felt like the adjustments just made the course easier.

I think the adjustments were mostly driven by making the course safer (which is better).

 

[Karl]

If they truly WERE made "safer", great. But another reason holes are changed for tournaments are because "those in power" (whomever they are) CAN change them. It's a power trip. Kind of like a new dog in the new neighborhood...

...psssssss.

 

[biscoe]

If they truly WERE made "safer", great. But another reason holes are changed for tournaments are because "those in power" (whomever they are) CAN change them. It's a power trip. Kind of like a new dog in the new neighborhood...

...psssssss.

I don't think there is any possible argument that Top of the World wasn't a disaster waiting to happen with the pin next to the parking lot- it had always amazed me that anyone was irresponsible enough to put it there to begin with.

...maybe I am just maddened by power though...

 

[Dire Wolfy]

Par 5 on a 350 or under hole is a little overdoing it. Especially when it made my score -16

 

[Karl]

I don't think there is any possible argument that Top of the World wasn't a disaster waiting to happen with the pin next to the parking lot- it had always amazed me that anyone was irresponsible enough to put it there to begin with.

...maybe I am just maddened by power though...

Not you John, and I'm not saying that it shouldn't have been (agree that it WAS too close to the parking lot and should have been moved), but SOME people in SOME situations just get all "holier-than-thou" and make changes for the sake of change only. Egos rarely make things better....

 

[Steve West]

The one thing these charts say to me is that hole structure is important. While par is set correctly, by your reasonable calculation, a vast number of them, 18 out of 24, barely make the standard. From what I saw, holes were adjusted to somehow make the course better? It felt like the adjustments just made the course easier.

Not "easier" in the sense most people use it. The average score for the prototypical 1000-rated player was 3.002 in 2018 and 3.022 in 2019. Up insignificantly.

There were more 2s and fewer 3s, so you're right that they are less par-3y than they were. (And that a lot were smelling par-2y.) However, the increase in 2s was offset by more 4s and 5s, so the holes were very slightly "harder".

Since the most common score became less common, I'd say it was a net improvement.

(Difficulty in relation to par went down only because they called that one hole a par 4 instead of 3.)

 

[casinnova]

Do you have any info about the field that played the tournament and what their ratings are compared to the 1000 rated par? Just wondering.

https://discgolfmetrix.com/?u=course_rating&ID=14174

https://discgolfmetrix.com/870071

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Steve West]

2019 303 Open Presented by DiscMania, Camenisch Park - Badlands, 303 Layout

 

[Steve West]

The Tennessee Disc Golf State Championships are always interesting to look at, since they seem to use Recreational Par for the Open Division. Just in case they ever want to use Gold par, I attempted to get Gold pars for each hole based on round ratings and hole lengths.

 Hole	  Rotary Blue	  Par	 Gold	      Kiwanis	  Par	 Gold	Panther Creek	  Par	 Gold	Cherokee Park	  Par	 Gold
    1	          570	    4	    4	          218	    3	    2	          735	    5	    4	          265	    3	    2
    2	          350	    3	    3	          327	    4	    3	          295	    3	    3	          535	    4	    3
    3	          370	    3	    3	          285	    3	    3	          625	    5	    4	          445	    4	    3
    4	          635	    5	    4	          200	    3	    2	          660	    4	    4	          310	    3	    3
    5	          535	    4	    4	          302	    3	    3	          520	    4	    3	          345	    3	    3
    6	          410	    4	    3	          270	    3	    2	          400	    3	    3	          290	    3	    2
    7	          400	    4	    3	          318	    3	    3	          450	    4	    3	          340	    3	    3
    8	          430	    4	    3	          333	    4	    3	          405	    3	    3	          615	    4	    3
    9	          410	    3	    3	          229	    3	    2	          710	    4	    4	          450	    4	    3
   10	          450	    3	    3	          224	    3	    2	          740	    5	    4	          485	    4	    3
   11	          485	    4	    3	          214	    3	    2	          620	    5	    4	          290	    3	    2
   12	          405	    4	    3	          312	    3	    3	          370	    3	    3	          385	    3	    3
   13	          370	    4	    3	          281	    3	    2	          590	    4	    3	          260	    3	    2
   14	          315	    3	    3	          191	    3	    2	          465	    4	    3	          635	    4	    4
   15	          390	    3	    3	          305	    4	    3	          650	    4	    4	          360	    3	    3
   16	          445	    4	    3	          254	    3	    2	          365	    3	    3	          310	    3	    3
   17	          455	    4	    3	          290	    3	    3	          635	    5	    4	          480	    4	    3
   18	          775	    5	    4	          323	    4	    3	          365	    3	    3	          455	    4	    3
Total	         8200	   68	   58	         4876	   58	   45	         9600	   71	   62	         7255	   62	   51

 

[Steve West]

Huk Central – Pro 2019, Grand Central Station

For Locomotive, course par of 61 would be appropriate for 900-rated players.

For Freight, course par of 59 would be appropriate for 870-rated players.

These courses seem to be a rich source of Gold par 2 holes. Here's one of the par2est. It's an island hole with a drop zone. Does anyone want to make the case that an expert would not expect a two on this hole?

 

[Jimb]

Prodigy Disc Pro Tour 2019 - Helsinki/Tali Disc Golf Park/2180m

Do you have any info about the field that played the tournament and what their ratings are compared to the 1000 rated par? Just wondering.

https://discgolfmetrix.com/?u=course_rating&ID=14174

https://discgolfmetrix.com/870071

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Cool. Thanks for the link. So from the link.

Average:Result
64.95, Rating 946.47
58.6, Rating 1000

So this seems right in line with what Steve is saying, right?

The lower rated players are dragging down the average, which is why these players can mess up the legitimate par for 1000 rated players, etc. I would imagine that's an oversimplification. But the numbers all seem to make sense this way. Thanks folks!

 

[Steve West]

Cool. Thanks for the link. So from the link.

Average:Result
64.95, Rating 946.47
58.6, Rating 1000

So this seems right in line with what Steve is saying, right?

The lower rated players are dragging down the average, which is why these players can mess up the legitimate par for 1000 rated players, etc. I would imagine that's an oversimplification. But the numbers all seem to make sense this way. Thanks folks!

Do you mean that the TD was setting the par for the field, so having more lower rated players in the field would result in softer pars?

 

[Jimb]

Do you mean that the TD was setting the par for the field, so having more lower rated players in the field would result in softer pars?

Yes... I think. Seems like the assigned par would have been more appropriate for blue or maybe even white level players more so than Gold level pros, right?

It actually looks this is the case for many events that you do these stats for.

 

[lyleoross]

I think the adjustments were mostly driven by making the course safer (which is better).

That's not what was said on the video coverage. Perhaps they got it wrong? Top of the world was modified for safety, but others were modified because? At least one was, "well, iot should have been par 4. The iconic throw that went up the side of the hill was shortened to the base. Not sure why.

Yes to safety, but a lot of the changes had no real explanation.

BTW, how many injuries have there been from throws off top of the world?

 

[lyleoross]

Not "easier" in the sense most people use it. The average score for the prototypical 1000-rated player was 3.002 in 2018 and 3.022 in 2019. Up insignificantly.

There were more 2s and fewer 3s, so you're right that they are less par-3y than they were. (And that a lot were smelling par-2y.) However, the increase in 2s was offset by more 4s and 5s, so the holes were very slightly "harder".

Since the most common score became less common, I'd say it was a net improvement.

(Difficulty in relation to par went down only because they called that one hole a par 4 instead of 3.)

I trust statistics more than most, but 17 of the 24 holes play barely at par 3. And for sue the scores fell way down from last year. Did you include the rain day in your assessment? Because by what I saw, there was a measurable difference between the two days.

 

[biscoe]

BTW, how many injuries have there been from throws off top of the world?

No idea. Hopefully none. Should they have waited for some before they moved it?