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PDGA survey

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I may actually use "distance tiers" as a talking point at the Summit, if you'll allow me; it is going to be very hard to establish; who will keep track of who throws how far, and are they giving it their all when that throw is being measured

The last point is the most difficult to police. For the measurement of the certification throws, they would be done in as reasonably long and flat an area as feasible (many, though I know not all, events happen some place with a practice field on-site, or nearby) at each tournament event, with as reasonably favorable a direction to the wind a possible. The tournament staff would be the ones tasked with measuring. Nothing prevents someone from throwing softer than they're capable of, especially since lower tiers having lower payouts isn't a barrier to earning more money (as I said, I'll always allow someone to play in a higher tier than they certify for, so if they manage to win against people who throw 200 feet further, they can get that bigger payout).


I did not admit to the topic not being enough of a priority or not enough to care, you are missing what a Board is supposed to be doing, and how a Board is supposed to act and govern; you should know that Boards (especially those of larger organisations, and at 120k, this is a larger organisation) should operate while taking into account the Eisenhower Matrix. The Board should, and does focus on other things than what the public fosuces on.

Having worked in the non-profit space, I'm aware to at least some degree of the functions and purpose of a board. I'm also aware of how transparency in situations where privacy is not explicitly required (eg- protected data such as medical records) is always beneficial to understanding, and furthering discussion. Nothing in an NDA should preclude, say, publishing the Eisenhower Matrix for the current year (or even keeping a live version, as priorities shift), so that players can see what things the board considers important.

Transparency is the foundation on which an organization can best build its reputation. I went to a very special school, which was founded by German Jews who fled the holocaust. They created a philosophy, and a culture, of always speaking up when something was wrong, and accepting that no one was inherently better than anyone else. Earlier this year, a careless teacher used a homework packet published by Duke University that included a very overtly racist image. Despite every alumnus of the school urging them passionately to address the issue, and show how that isn't what the school is about, they released one press release, and were silent from then on. Now, rather than having corrected the misconception about the culture of the school, they will forever be "that racist school in Michigan". Had they been transparent about that, and positive action taken after that, they would be seen as a force for good.

Transparency doesn't require violating NDAs (which, frankly, are a very odd thing to have at play in the governing body of a sport, which also publishes its board minutes on its own website). It requires open, honest communication, even just to say you don't find something acceptable, and showing the ways your organization continues to work towards equity, and eliminating hate.

Heck, it'd go a long way to showing the PDGA has been doing something about the question of fairness with trans women competing in FPO, if it was even pointed out that you'd discussed gathering info from both trans and cis women for the medical subcommittee to discuss, back in May 2022 - two months before Natalie had won DGLO. I had to go digging though the minutes to find that. Then again, considering other than the month prior, where the subject seems to only come to your attention via other orgafnzations (WFDF and ACES), and that nothing pertaining to trans players shows up in any of the minutes available prior to, or since then, perhaps not. Doesn't seem like the board considers it enough of an issue to discuss, or at least to note in the minutes that it was discussed...

I wonder what ever happened to that request for "feedback from affected populations, including transgender athletes and a selection of female PDGA members." It sure wasn't whatever that survey that went out was, and any time I reached out to try to give feedback or advice, I was told "sorry, you're not a paying member - give us money or we won't listen" (never mind that I was literally reaching out to ask if the PDGA was doing anything about the aggressively transphobic culture of its player base, so that I'd know whether or not I felt safe enough competing to renew my membership). Even when specifically asked, I was given no details - no transparency. I was told one thing, and one thing only. We won't have this discussion with you, unless you give us money first.

Think about the difference in the impression I got of the PDGA from that one interaction, compared to how transparency would've changed it.

Since my re-election, not much could be done yet with regards to the "transgender topic", other than releasing the Community Guidelines and amended Disciplinary Actions procedure

Nothing in an NDA precludes the PDGA from holding a press conference, to address emergent situations that affect the player base. If the PDGA could issue a statement for Nico being suspended, they could just as easily issue as many statements as are necessary to curb the growing aggression towards trans players.

As far as not speaking up against lies that are being spread about Natalie; have you considered that I do not speak up becasuse I either didn't see the lie being spread, or actually know what the truth is?

The one I used as an example is one that is disturbingly widely used as fuel for the fires of hate, at this point. It would be exceedingly difficult to not know about it, at this point. As for the truth of it, I found the interview Natalie did where she talked about when she was first exposed to the sport, the very first time I had to refute that lie. You, as a board member, have a much more direct line to the elite level pros than most. You could've asked
her directly, if you couldn't find that interview.

The same is true for any of the other pieces of misinformation or dishonesty going around (trans women are dominating FPO, men are transitioning just to make money in FPO, being trans is a choice, young children are having bottom surgery, the study claiming testosterone causes better hand-eye coordination that didn't account for whether the backgrounds of its participants were athletic or not, to ensure they were comparing athletes to athletes, etc...) I also have a pretty full work week, and these are things I have picked up over the years since I socially transitioned, since that's about when everyone seems to have an opinion about your existence (I'm certain you know what I mean).

That I personally do not care about winnings does NOT IN ANY WAY stop or prevent me from advocating for and fighting for preserving other transgender women's chances of making a living, or at the very least, be able to afford to play next week. It is an assumption on your end, that my personal stance here commands my stance and priorities. I will do better there, but you, please take back your assumptions, as they are incorrect.

I can only meet you where you are. Your stated stance, here where you're vocal about it, is far from where the actual fight is, and the way you have stated it is dismissive of the actual fight. I cannot take you at your word that you are having discussions elsewhere, which I am not privy to. What you have said, where the public can see and hear it, is what you will always be judged on. Few and far between will be the people who read through all of the PDGA board's meeting minutes, to see how or why your values at meetings may (or may not) differ.

Several of the PDGA Staff pretty much have a full time job now checking social media responses and deleting hateful comments where and when they see them.

Deleting comments is one thing. Speaking out about their inappropriateness is another thing entirely. If you delete them, and no on knows they were posted, or why they were removed, nothing has changed. Again, transparency is paramount in these sorts of situations, because outside of this conversation, how many people outside of the PDGA staff themselves do you think even know that's going on? It comes across as silence, which always, always helps the oppressor - never the oppressed.

Look, I appreciate that your heart is in the right place, and that you feel you are doing what you can. Don't ever get me wrong on that. I won't, however, keep from speaking truth to power - even if that power is an ally that I feel is in need of a course correction. My family has a long history of doing that (we're in the US because my Babcia had to flee Poland, having been found out by the Nazis when she was smuggling Jews out of the country to save them from the camps a lot of the rest of our family died in), and I would not be able to look myself in the eye in the mirror if I just accepted the way things are, when I see injustice. Sometimes injustice is the aggressive bullying I fight against, and sometimes it's someone who has the power to make things better, but isn't using it to its fullest.
 
it takes multiple PDGA staff members 20-40 hours a week each to delete comments?? I think the PDGA may need to rethink their hiring process

you're intentionally misreading that.
The amount of hate being spewed, even on totally unrelated posts, is very hard to keep track of.
 
it takes multiple PDGA staff members 20-40 hours a week each to delete comments?? I think the PDGA may need to rethink their hiring process

Or you highly underestimate the sheer volume of hateful rhetoric surrounding this one issue. The truth is somewhere in between, but seriously...You would not believe the amount of hate going around.

I had half a dozen different Instagram strangers send me hateful rants to my DMs today alone, just because I commented supportively in one of Natalie Ryan's Instagram posts.

That doesn't even begin to touch the Kiwi Farms people taking notice of me a couple months ago, and the amount of crap they've already sent my way.

A huge amount of people are heavily emotionally invested in their disgust at the existence of transgender people. More than most people realize.
 
you're intentionally misreading that.
The amount of hate being spewed, even on totally unrelated posts, is very hard to keep track of.

I'm not misreading anything, I'm literally just reading what you wrote.

Several of the PDGA Staff pretty much have a full time job

several = more than two but not many. I went with "multiple"
full time job = The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) defines full-time as 35 hours and above. I went with 20-40

You can say "I was using hyperbole, so you shouldn't have taken me literally" but you can't say I intentionally misread it considering I literally just read what you wrote.

Or you highly underestimate the sheer volume of hateful rhetoric surrounding this one issue. The truth is somewhere in between, but seriously...You would not believe the amount of hate going around.

@gingerandhoney I guess I didn't misread it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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I'm not misreading anything, I'm literally just reading what you wrote.



several = more than two but not many. I went with "multiple"
full time job = The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) defines full-time as 35 hours and above. I went with 20-40

You can say "I was using hyperbole, so you shouldn't have taken me literally" but you can't say I intentionally misread it considering I literally just read what you wrote.



@gingerandhoney I guess I didn't misread it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Why is this even something worth being so pedantic about? What would be the point, other than trying to suggest trans people are making more of an issue of the hate directed at them, than you feel is believable or appropriate?
 
Why is this even something worth being so pedantic about? What would be the point, other than trying to suggest trans people are making more of an issue of the hate directed at them, than you feel is believable or appropriate?

Because I think gingerandhoney and others make great points when they are speaking concretely in facts and I don't think hyperbole does anybody any good.
 
To be clear, the PGA could just enact the same Gender Policy the LPGA enacted after losing the Lawless case. That policy would be legal but would still function as a defacto ban from FPO on Natalie Ryan and several other transwomen.

What is that policy?
 
lots of <snip>

Nothing in an NDA should preclude, say, publishing the Eisenhower Matrix for the current year (or even keeping a live version, as priorities shift), so that players can see what things the board considers important.
Interesting point, I will bring that up.
It's sorty of like our strategic priorities, which we delcared for the next 5 years.

Transparency doesn't require violating NDAs (which, frankly, are a very odd thing to have at play in the governing body of a sport, which also publishes its board minutes on its own website). It requires open, honest communication, even just to say you don't find something acceptable, and showing the ways your organization continues to work towards equity, and eliminating hate.
Agree.

Heck, it'd go a long way to showing the PDGA has been doing something about the question of fairness with trans women competing in FPO, if it was even pointed out that you'd discussed gathering info from both trans and cis women for the medical subcommittee to discuss, back in May 2022 - two months before Natalie had won DGLO. I had to go digging though the minutes to find that. Then again, considering other than the month prior, where the subject seems to only come to your attention via other orgafnzations (WFDF and ACES), and that nothing pertaining to trans players shows up in any of the minutes available prior to, or since then, perhaps not. Doesn't seem like the board considers it enough of an issue to discuss, or at least to note in the minutes that it was discussed...
It was discussed regularly, and often initiated by either the Medical Committee liaison or myself; but - speaking in general now - items that are simply being discussed without resulting in a clear action point or concensus typically don't make it to the meeting minutes; I think we can and should do better, there. I'll bring that up.

I wonder what ever happened to that request for "feedback from affected populations, including transgender athletes and a selection of female PDGA members." It sure wasn't whatever that survey that went out was, and any time I reached out to try to give feedback or advice, I was told "sorry, you're not a paying member - give us money or we won't listen" (never mind that I was literally reaching out to ask if the PDGA was doing anything about the aggressively transphobic culture of its player base, so that I'd know whether or not I felt safe enough competing to renew my membership). Even when specifically asked, I was given no details - no transparency. I was told one thing, and one thing only. We won't have this discussion with you, unless you give us money first.
The general survey to any and all current PDGA members was sent out early October.
Before then, over the summer, I helped facilitate transgender and non-binary disc golfers (members and non) be contacted to take a survey, without the PDGA ever knowing who the people hwo took the survey were.

Think about the difference in the impression I got of the PDGA from that one interaction, compared to how transparency would've changed it.
Yes, that's too "cookie cutter", I apologise.

Nothing in an NDA precludes the PDGA from holding a press conference, to address emergent situations that affect the player base. If the PDGA could issue a statement for Nico being suspended, they could just as easily issue as many statements as are necessary to curb the growing aggression towards trans players.
They did, but not clearly resulting in anything meaningful.

The one I used as an example is one that is disturbingly widely used as fuel for the fires of hate, at this point. It would be exceedingly difficult to not know about it, at this point. As for the truth of it, I found the interview Natalie did where she talked about when she was first exposed to the sport, the very first time I had to refute that lie. You, as a board member, have a much more direct line to the elite level pros than most. You could've asked her directly, if you couldn't find that interview.
I could have, I did not. I should have. I do not which interview you are referring to.
Yes, it would appear I have a more direct line to elite players, but using that direct line would be explicitly (ab)using a level of power I am perceived to have.

The same is true for any of the other pieces of misinformation or dishonesty going around (trans women are dominating FPO, men are transitioning just to make money in FPO, being trans is a choice, young children are having bottom surgery, the study claiming testosterone causes better hand-eye coordination that didn't account for whether the backgrounds of its participants were athletic or not, to ensure they were comparing athletes to athletes, etc...) I also have a pretty full work week, and these are things I have picked up over the years since I socially transitioned, since that's about when everyone seems to have an opinion about your existence (I'm certain you know what I mean).
Whenever I do find such bits, I do challenge and debunk where I can.
Not enough apparently, and I am routinely blocked from spaces that are considered anti-trans, so I can't fully engage and debunk.

I can only meet you where you are. Your stated stance, here where you're vocal about it, is far from where the actual fight is, and the way you have stated it is dismissive of the actual fight. I cannot take you at your word that you are having discussions elsewhere, which I am not privy to. What you have said, where the public can see and hear it, is what you will always be judged on. Few and far between will be the people who read through all of the PDGA board's meeting minutes, to see how or why your values at meetings may (or may not) differ.
I accept that. And try to do better.

Deleting comments is one thing. Speaking out about their inappropriateness is another thing entirely. If you delete them, and no on knows they were posted, or why they were removed, nothing has changed. Again, transparency is paramount in these sorts of situations, because outside of this conversation, how many people outside of the PDGA staff themselves do you think even know that's going on? It comes across as silence, which always, always helps the oppressor - never the oppressed.
That's exactly what I say repeatedly, internally, and externally.

Look, I appreciate that your heart is in the right place, and that you feel you are doing what you can. Don't ever get me wrong on that. I won't, however, keep from speaking truth to power - even if that power is an ally that I feel is in need of a course correction. My family has a long history of doing that (we're in the US because my Babcia had to flee Poland, having been found out by the Nazis when she was smuggling Jews out of the country to save them from the camps a lot of the rest of our family died in), and I would not be able to look myself in the eye in the mirror if I just accepted the way things are, when I see injustice. Sometimes injustice is the aggressive bullying I fight against, and sometimes it's someone who has the power to make things better, but isn't using it to its fullest.
And that is the other part of my lineage ;)
Continue speaking truth to power. I can most certainly do more to make things better.
In cvhambers, I can be and am as outspoken as I want or need to be. Outside I need to work with the short leash I am on. If I want to continue having the power to fight and advocate in chambers, I need to be more selective with how I respond publicly, lest I be removed from the Board, and no longer have two feet well inside the door.

And yes, I am aware that will inevitably lead to people from the trans community berating me and thinking I'm a false prophet; luckily, I do also get praise and continued support from different members in the same community.
I am totally aware that even within the trans community, I will be hated by some. There will always be someone who is - justified even - in saying and stating I am not doing enough, and am not busting enough jaws and faces.
 
I'm not misreading anything, I'm literally just reading what you wrote.



several = more than two but not many. I went with "multiple"
full time job = The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) defines full-time as 35 hours and above. I went with 20-40

You can say "I was using hyperbole, so you shouldn't have taken me literally" but you can't say I intentionally misread it considering I literally just read what you wrote.



@gingerandhoney I guess I didn't misread it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

How would you then describe your statement on PDGA's hiring?
 
https://www.lpga.com/gender-policy

Its requirements for transwomen who have undergone male puberty are pretty extreme.

Most of those requirements are what are required to change your birth certificate in a lot of US states. Heck, it's just been in the last year or two that I wouldn't have to show proof (under penalty of perjury) of bottom surgery to get mine corrected. May seem like an odd thing to care about doing, but I can't update my social security or passport to reflect the correct gender without the birth certificate being updated first. That can, has, and does continue to cause undue harm to trans people when they travel, retire, interact with others (especially law enforcement) in a legal capacity, or get their credit record updated to reflect their new name and such...

The essentially unrestricted authorization for release of medical information is a bridge way too far, though. Requiring them having the right to your full medical history, not just that of the bottom surgery. Essentially waving the legal right to prosecute for a HIPAA violation, if someone leaks it, because the privacy policy is the LPGA's own, rather than them being a medical provider who is beholden to the regulatory burden.

That's insane.
 
Most of those requirements are what are required to change your birth certificate in a lot of US states. Heck, it's just been in the last year or two that I wouldn't have to show proof (under penalty of perjury) of bottom surgery to get mine corrected. May seem like an odd thing to care about doing, but I can't update my social security or passport to reflect the correct gender without the birth certificate being updated first. That can, has, and does continue to cause undue harm to trans people when they travel, retire, interact with others (especially law enforcement) in a legal capacity, or get their credit record updated to reflect their new name and such...

The essentially unrestricted authorization for release of medical information is a bridge way too far, though. Essentially waving the legal right to prosecute for a HIPAA violation, if someone leaks it, because the privacy policy is the LPGA's own, rather than them being a medical provider who is beholden to the regulatory burden.

That's insane.
In 2014, that forced bottom surgery AND forced sterilisation, in order to get birth certificate amended, was abolished in The Netherlands.
Amending birth certificate is legally necessary for any other document to display the gender marker that matches the experienced gender.
As of last year, reparations are being paid to anyone who was forced to undergo these surgeries in order to have birth certificate be amended.
 
Yes, it would appear I have a more direct line to elite players, but using that direct line would be explicitly (ab)using a level of power I am perceived to have.

It's only abusing power if you're using it to manipulate or grant privilege to someone. I wonder how much the hearts and minds of the competitors in FPO who feel the need to resort to cloak and dagger discussions to put together a petition could've been eased, if they felt the PDGA had a more hands-on relationship with them - even if the decisions kept someone playing in their division that they didn't feel should be there. I wonder if it's not too late to find out... ;)

Outreach and education, especially within an organization, go a long way towards progressing DEI policies towards their goals.
 
In 2014, that forced bottom surgery AND forced sterilisation, in order to get birth certificate amended, was abolished in The Netherlands.
Amending birth certificate is legally necessary for any other document to display the gender marker that matches the experienced gender.
As of last year, reparations are being paid to anyone who was forced to undergo these surgeries in order to have birth certificate be amended.

It's great to hear that things are changing there. I was always surprised that the forced sterilization requirement stuck around as long as it did, in a country that otherwise is usually seen as a very progressive place...

I think I'm going to adopt "forced bottom surgery" as my term for it moving forward, rather than "proof of bottom surgery". It really conveys the point more accurately.
 
It's only abusing power if you're using it to manipulate or grant privilege to someone. I wonder how much the hearts and minds of the competitors in FPO who feel the need to resort to cloak and dagger discussions to put together a petition could've been eased, if they felt the PDGA had a more hands-on relationship with them - even if the decisions kept someone playing in their division that they didn't feel should be there. I wonder if it's not too late to find out... ;)

Outreach and education, especially within an organization, go a long way towards progressing DEI policies towards their goals.
Absolutely agree.
Me being the non-USA based Board member, while being a Board member, have a surprisingly long line to reaching elite players. Board members certainly have contact with Board members, not sure who predominantly initiates.
 
It's great to hear that things are changing there. I was always surprised that the forced sterilization requirement stuck around as long as it did, in a country that otherwise is usually seen as a very progressive place...

I think I'm going to adopt "forced bottom surgery" as my term for it moving forward, rather than "proof of bottom surgery". It really conveys the point more accurately.

Hence The Netherlands having adopted paying reparations, which I don't see other countries applying soon. It both shows that NL were horribly forceful for so long, and have realised they were, and now try to make amends; even if reparations do not actually repair the damage suffered.
 
Absolutely agree.
Me being the non-USA based Board member, while being a Board member, have a surprisingly long line to reaching elite players. Board members certainly have contact with Board members, not sure who predominantly initiates.

Does the PDGA have a position for direct player advocacy in the DGPT? It would seem the elite players in the sport would merit some level of customer service or professional relations above and beyond what the standard player base is provided...
 
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