gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
What Shallows wrote there is not untrue.
It is in large part why and how the #respectHERgame movement got started a few years ago, by women being sexualised and ridiculed and patronised over.
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What Shallows wrote there is not untrue.
It is in large part why and how the #respectHERgame movement got started a few years ago, by women being sexualised and ridiculed and patronised over.
I'd imagine that this is only one of very many things the board has to deal with and, though understandably urgent to some players, may not be at the absolute top of the list for the board.
Nor would I be surprised if there have been informal discussions of the topic, at least somewhere among board members.
Nor would I be surprised if there have been informal discussions of the topic, at least somewhere among board members.
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
A large part of the women who *do* choose to speak up on the topic, actively advocate for inclusion. It was the case in 2019, when I won FA40 at AmWorlds, and it's been the case in these last 1.5 years or so that Natalie Ryan's become a household name on the FPO tour.
Referencing nazi Germany in comparison to ****ing disc golf has ruined any credibility you had.
Unreal.
In my post I absolutely did not insinuate that someone would want to do this job in a mediocre fashion. I was actually quite clear to provide a different perspective that also involved aspiring to be great, please reread following "b)" in my post. And please take time to read my entire response to you before engaging me in the future.
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
I get that you are showing your dismay (at the Board and me directly) currently, but I find that in part unjustified.
Just like the campaign during the recent election focused on "get these two candidates in, so they can remove transgenders form the sport, and most importantly remove Laura - who is the cause of all of this - from the Board" failed to see that for anything to happen at least a majority of 4 is needed (when the Board consists of 7 members), casts too much weight and power on the shoulders of one.
Yes, I could be doing more, advocate more, bring more salient points to the table, but even then, you wouldn't know what I do and don't do.
You only see what the Staff may or may not do on behalf of, or at the behest of, the Board (once it reached a consensus in any direction).
Yes, I take responsibility for not being able to sway the Board more in the direction I'd like it to move in. Nevertheless, strides are being made, that we as a Board reached concensus on.
You do not know what is being discussed at our Board meetings, the topic is regularly discussed, but as the IOC actively tasked the sports federations to do their due diligence on their (current/to-be-defined) policies on transgender inclusion - the discussion on the presumed (un)fairness of the policy has been halted to give the (created for the specific purpose) Medical Subcommittee on eligibility for gender-based divisions the time and space to do their due diligence; as they are Medical Professionals, we - the Board - are not.
In the meantime, you will no doubt have noticed, that as far as being socially active; the PDGA has made giant strides towards being "part of the world around us" in these last two years;
* creating a Diversity & Outreach Taskforce when the #BLM protests were happening,and we realised the PDGA could and should be doing more to be inclusive and welcoming.
* speaking and acting when Russia invaded Ukraine
* Creating the Community Guidelines and expanding the Disciplinary Actions procedure to be able to also prosecute and sanction people breaking Community Guidelines, rather than just competition-related infractions by players/TD's.
No, I find it terrible how transgender people are marginalised on social media, and we could and should be doing more.
As far as channels that the PDGA has control over, the PDGA does take control and may very well be issueing suspensions (not just from those channels, but also form competing) as we speak.
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
Instead of women perhaps having deeper capacity for it, men are actively taught not to be vulnerable.
Boys don't cry / don't be a sissy / you're such a girl / stop being such a girl, suck it up.
Need I go on?
I think it's probably a bit of nature and nurture.
Skamanda
Double Eagle Member
I apologize. I made no assumption of specific heritage, but that doesn't excuse my blanket assumption of whiteness, from photos and what little details I can glean from the internet. I appreciate your candor in responding to me. I had worded that more harshly than I intended (it was early, I hadn't had coffee, insert excuse #3 here...), instead meaning to underscore the potential severity of reaction should you word things the same way in say, a television interview that aired in the US. For my part, I apologize for that portion coming across as harshly as it did.
What other roads have you suggested? The silence from the board, and the PDGA as a whole, is what allows the aggression towards trans players to continue growing. I'm loathe to say it, but having been the victim of transphobic violence myself, I know all too well that it's only a matter of time before the assumed acceptance (through absence of censure from the governing body) of that aggression leads to a trans person getting attacked on a disc golf course.
The most important thing for people to truly sit with is the fact that they're arguing for forcing the trans women into the situation they're trying to protect cis women from. They say we throw too far for cis women to be competitive, and that trans women in FPO should compete in MPO - where the men throw too far for the trans women to be competitive.
A trans division is no solution to this, for two reasons: First, there just aren't enough of us, and there would rarely ever be enough to field a division in a sanctioned event. Second, the very concept "others" us. It is codifying the stance that trans women aren't women, which is possibly the worst opinion the PDGA could present on the issue, all other issues aside.
There is a very simple way to handle differences in distance, perceived or otherwise. I say simple a bit tongue in cheek, because I know converting the existing organization to this would be anything but. I'm going to attempt to implement it in a series of tournaments in the coming year, so I'm sure I'll find out the pitfalls before too long...
Rank players based on distance tiers.
No gendered divisions. You play in the 300-350 foot distance tier (or whatever subdivisions of distance make sense for fair and competitive play). Have players certify distance with laser measured throws at an open field at least twice per season. Let players play in any tier above their certification, but none below it. If it becomes necessary, you can compare putting stats over time to establish sub-tiers, so that players who might normally be MA3 because of their putting aren't feeling left behind by, or potentially displacing a top level FPO player, solely by virtue of a few good drives.
It's not a perfect solution, but it was the simplest to implement in the few brainstorming sessions I've had with other players, and it's one I'm going to give a try. If you'd like, I can keep you abreast of how it works, in practice...
You need to understand that, when you speak of the issues you do, it shows what your priorities are on the subject as a whole. Speaking as a board member, whether in your official capacity or not, it tips your hand as far as where your thinking is on the subject. I called you out on that, because even among trans players, you're nowhere near what the players are fighting about. It's similar to me calling out what you said about the board not even discussing this. You have inside information on what the board is discussing (naturally, you're on the board), and you admitted that this topic isn't enough of a priority to have been something you've been discussing or planning for. This is the defining issue of this, and likely future seasons (as well as past seasons, such as 2019 when you earned your World Championship). That the board (or its members) can be so far off-base with the issues they feel are important, especially on this specific issue, is frightening.
No, 100% of this fight is because of the people who voted to get you off the board. I was glad to have you as a board member, when I heard you got the seat. I am disappointed in how little that has affected anything, but it will be cisgender men who hang us all. Aside from rumblings of a secret petition from some FPO players who excluded any trans athletes or allies, the cis women in the discussion have almost universally been supportive of inclusion.
Because you're soo far off the mark on what the core of this issue is. I'll never say you're wrong to mention the emotional fallout from this whole argument, and a potential ban, but nobody but the dozen or so trans women in the PDGA care how it affects us emotionally. They care that no one at the PDGA, not even the trans woman on the board (who claims the title of activist) is voicing solid, or serious opposition to the misinformation and outright lies (for example, on this very board, and in several other places online and in person, I've had to refute the lie that Natalie had been a mediocre player in MPO before transition, and switched to make money - despite the fact she hadn't even played disc golf prior to transition) that the bigots are using to fuel all of this hate. You cannot win a war, especially one of activism for rights, by trying to fight battles that aren't happening. You have to fight the battles that are actually being fought, or you'll lose before the fight even begins. You have to show up, if you want to win - and when we see how little this matters to the BoD as a whole (by your own admission), and how far off the mark the hill you've personally chosen to defend is, what other hope do we have? From where I'm sitting, I've personally done more to advance this issue on this message board alone, than I've seen from the PDGA and its "are you a bigoted, conservative, control freak, check yes or no" survey.
The fact that you wrote you personally don't care enough about making a living playing disc golf is exactly the problem. You aren't the player base. You aren't going to be affected by this like the current, and prospective future players will. They do care, and have made that very well known. If you are going to take up the mantle of an activist, that is your cause - not your own personal take on it.
I thought that was obvious, but yes. It's the same sort of calculation that auto and insurance companies make, when deciding whether a recall is worth it. Trans players make up almost none of the paying player-base. If the PDGA loses us, we'll just be a tiny, tiny blip in the number of players that don't renew. If the bigots walk away, that's a sizable portion of your proceeds and yearly budget. It is naive of anyone to think that has no bearing in the discussions. If that's not how you think about it, you need to focus on your empathy, and think about how your words, silence, action, and inaction are perceived.
Yes, that's exactly the impression the board has been giving, by sticking its head in the sand, and not addressing the disturbing amount of hateful cis men who are monopolizing every discussion on the subject.
Then be present. Be loud. Be all of the things an activist should be. The silence is deafening.
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
None of the above, actually.
I understand the confustion and assumptions, because in North America, this would never fly.
Outside of North America it is totally permissible for a TD to have 0% payout and 0% payout depth, in ANY division.
See https://www.pdga.com/files/2022_int_program_guide_-_v7_complete.pdf (page 17).
In my now 12 years of competing (of which 3 years in gender-based divisions), I have won the following:
In mixed div's, I have never declined cash to maintain my Am status.
In mixed div's, I have won one disc and one tshirt (at an icebowl in 2012), a $30 voucher at another event, and 3 discs; all of these three events taking place in the USA. I think I remember winning 1 or 2 discs at another event, but I am not sure.
In Fxx div's, I have never declined cash to maintain my Am status.
In Fxx divisions, I have won $183 divided over 2 events (20eur - at the first event I played after AWorlds - and about 140eur last year for taking 7th place in a division of 31 - much tyo each competitor's dismay, as per that same International Guide, payout could be that low a % of players fee, even at an A tier event), a bottle of wine, a box of chocolates, a few times I won a single disc (each time passing that disc to one of the women in my division - pay it forward), and last month at my for now last event; an umbrella, a pair of socks, a bag of cashews, and three jars of food supplements.
Just skimming this dumpster fire I picked up Jim Crow and Nazi references. Someone is obviously the most persecuted person since Jesus himself.
If you consider her statements to be hyperbolic, maybe you should engage the rationales provided in those posts instead of engaging in completely empty hyperbole yourself.
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
Thank you for taking the time to engage and point out things to me.
I am responding to all of your points below without adding all of the quoted texts
Where I can, I do, and will be loud(er) and (more) visible.
Do not mistake the Board being too silent for
our taste on this as my silence.But yes, I must be more loud and visible.
Where I can - Board members are on a very short leash, including NDA's - I am.
Thank you for apologising.
I will try to be more careful and aware of what effect words can have on others. Thank you for taking the time to apologise for making assumptions about me.
As for other roads proposed; I can not speak on what the Board discusses/discussed that did not lead to a concensus; topics that concensus was reached upon are declared in our Board meetings.
I hope you understand me not being able to disclose inner Board discussions here.
I wholly agree with what you perceive as silence form the PDGA helps foment anger against the transgender community. And it makes me both angry and sad, but also more determined to deliver that presentation at the Fall Summit with all of my blood, tears, and sweat spilling out of every pore as I deliver.
Indeed, as you say, in the public domain, there is a false equivalency being made between cisgender men and transgender women; which not against pushback is given on, other than by indivisuals like me and - I am assuming here -yourself.
I may actually use "distance tiers" as a talking point at the Summit, if you'll allow me; it is going to be very hard to establish; who will keep track of who throws how far, and are they giving it their all when that throw is being measured, but yes, the most-used argument against transgender women competing in gender-based divisions is that men throw farther than women (and in that statement imply that transgender women are men).
I totally get what you say about my tipping my hand when speaking also BECAUSE I am a Board member.
I do very explicitly make a distinction in what I say on a personal title (still, people will see me as a Board member, as if I were speaking on behalf of the Board - which is why I explicitly talk about - for instance - how that payout thing relates to me alone; not how it relates to the Board's leaning, or how I thing other people thing on the subject.
I did not admit to the topic not being enough of a priority or not enough to care, you are missing what a Board is supposed to be doing, and how a Board is supposed to act and govern; you should know that Boards (especially those of larger organisations, and at 120k, this is a larger organisation) should operate while taking into account the Eisenhower Matrix. The Board should, and does focus on other things than what the public fosuces on.
And as per that Matrix, the Board tasked the Medical Subcommittee to find out how the Board should vote (after the Board do discuss), while the Board focus on - to name one - strategic plan for the next 5 years (the main theme of the Spring Summit); where 3 of the 7 identified priorities explicitly tie back into diversity, equity & incusion (see https://www.pdga.com/files/2022-5-10bodsummitminutes_final.pdf, page 9).
I am aware of my being re-elected has warmed the hearts of the transgender community and many (if not most) women in general, as well as that of people outisde of the USA, First People and people with a different ethnical background.
Since my re-election, not much could be done yet with regards to the "transgender topic", other than releasing the Community Guidelines and amended Disciplinary Actions procedure, and prepare tirelessly on getting that presentation to be delivered in the best way possible. With the best outcome for the people competing in gender-based divisions (and yes, I am totally aware and I feel the support of the any and women who chime in in support of inclusion). That may seem like a little, or not enough, and I'll bear that cross.
I must contest not speaking up against the lies and hatred (as much as you think I could or should)
As far as not speaking up against lies that are being spread about Natalie; have you considered that I do not speak up becasuse I either didn't see the lie being spread, or actually know what the truth is?
Aside from that, I actually have an about 80hr work week, and I am at least 6 hours removed by timezones from thjings happening in real-time. I'd say about 70% of my time not sleeping or working is consumed by trying to debunk lies and false information, advocate for inclusion and compassion, and work on my presentation.
I wish I had more time, and more eyes.
And yes, I then sometimes get sidetracked into futile discussions with trolls who manage to trigger me; I try to avoid it, but sometimes I stumble.
That I personally do not care about winnings does NOT IN ANY WAY stop or prevent me from advocating for and fighting for preserving other transgender women's chances of making a living, or at the very least, be able to afford to play next week.
It is an assumption on your end, that my personal stance here commands my stance and priorities.
I will do better there, but you, please take back your assumptions, as they are incorrect.
On the financial repercussions on what a ban or a walkout may or nay not have, I did and do speak a lot in chambers; but I can not do so on a public forum. Please respect that.
Several of the PDGA Staff pretty much have a full time job now checking social media responses and deleting hateful comments where and when they see them.
should they catch more? Yes.
Do do know all of the insidious things that are being written for being intentionally hurtful? Clearly not. I do try to help educate staff and Board there, but I can only report and clarify on what I see.
Yes, because the trans debate doesn't have any larger societal impacts outside of disc golf.
Way to be reductive.
Exactly what this thread needs, more hyperbole.
I'd need a bit more of a reward than a couple of "nices" from random internet dudes to move beyond skimming and into engaging the empty rationales expressed here.
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
* Do do = Do they
robdeforge
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
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it takes multiple PDGA staff members 20-40 hours a week each to delete comments?? I think the PDGA may need to rethink their hiring process
Got it, you've got nothing.
To be clear, the PGA could just enact the same Gender Policy the LPGA enacted after losing the Lawless case. That policy would be legal but would still function as a defacto ban from FPO on Natalie Ryan and several other transwomen.
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