PDGA survey

[dmoore1998]

I don't know why you keep bringing this up. The rules in all sports allowing transwomen to compete in Women's' events already require medical transition, and no one is considering changing that to allow non medically transitioned transwomen to compete in Women's' events. In the context of this discussion, of course we mean "medically transitioned transwomen" when we type "transwomen." Do we really have to type it out every time? No thanks.

Your laziness to type out what you mean isn't an excuse for having transphobic views that only medically transitioned trans women qualify as trans women. I keep bringing it up in large part because you specifically have commented on other threads that trans women who haven't medically transitioned aren't real women because they haven't "earned it" in your words. It needs to keep being brought up lest your transphobic views become the standard.

 

[Jolt]

You can change your mind. You need 12 months of hormone treatment though. So if today you're a man, and tomorrow you're a woman, you wouldn't have done 12 months of hormone therapy as a woman.

Last post . . but was not Hunters point in the video that PDGA did not demand you to prove that you got the hormone therapy? it was voluntary.

 

[dmoore1998]

Last post . . but was not Hunters point in the video that PDGA did not demand you to prove that you got the hormone therapy? it was voluntary.

Let's start with this:

1. We don't know if the emails were real (but assuming they were, I'll address below)
2. We don't know if Elaine King who purportedly wrote the emails had any idea what she was saying.

But back to point 1...the email essentially said if you know someone is trans, you can question them about meeting the requirements. This questioning cannot happen based on looks though (i.e. you cannot question whether someone is trans based on how they look). Once you know someone is trans, you can question them to the PDGA, then the PDGA gathers the proof. Trans women don't have to "pre prove" to the PDGA that they completed hormone therapy...only once questioned (according to the email, according to the actual PDGA rules, they have to do more before).

Go back and listen to the "questioning/challenging" a trans individual. It can't be based on looks. Questioning Hunter wouldn't be based on looks, it would be based on him publicly admitting he is a male, so if he shows up to FPO, you know he is trans...not by his looks, but by what he's publicly said.

 

[dmoore1998]

Last post . . but was not Hunters point in the video that PDGA did not demand you to prove that you got the hormone therapy? it was voluntary.

To more directly address, Hunter's point was that he was surprised the email said you didn't have to pre-prove your hormone therapy to the PDGA...because their actual rules say you do. The email said you have to prove it once challenged by someone. Challenging a public figure like Hunter is easy...against someone totally unknown it may not be.

 

[Shallows]

As long as we insist (my problem is more with this insistence) on sex based segregation, there is going to be a need for a transitioning stage. The problem is more with the sex based segregation, which is embedded deeply into our societal norms, than with the problem-of-the-moment related to trans women participating in women's athletic divisions.

That's why we see no sex-based segregation in other species. There's no insisting.

 

[jenb]

Can you document this?

Was it true before the trans- issue was added to the discussion?

I suspect eliminating advantages (when the assumption was clear-cut difference between male & female, as determined by reproductive organs) is the origin of most female-protected divisions.

Sports are a beauty contest intended to identify the best mating partners for achieving various physical traits in offspring to be used as cannon fodder in wars fought over natural resources.. Require fertility tests for all competitors and all of this goes away.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Which brings us full circle back to the transgender conversation... I'm fascinated by how gender dysphoria has soared to the top of the mental disorders charts and become so popular in recent decades. I'm also fascinated by the idea that a brain be gendered? Is the tissue gendered, or are the thoughts gendered? What other body parts (without reproductive organs) are gendered?

The brain is referred to as a sexed organ not because of the type of tissue, but the ways in which the tissues are constructed to interact - the pathways developed by them. For example - the structure of the premotor cortex alters somatosensory processing. Someone who desires a transition physically from male to female will have a premotor cortex that is telling their body that they should not have a penis. The penis itself will feel like a foreign object, like it should not be there. There is an insistent feeling that the object is "with" the body and not "of" the body. This is one example of the ways the brain can be sexed, though there are more - hypothalamus, amygdala, etc.

 

[Shallows]

Someone who desires a transition physically from male to female will have a premotor cortex that is telling their body that they should not have a penis.

But of course the premotor cortex shifts what it's telling the body over the course of a lifetime, a decade, years, even daily!

 

[robdeforge]

The policy now isn't being enforced, but the policy does set specific standards for what transgendered women have to do in order to compete in FPO.

I'm not convinced by that singular email thread shared by a known anti-transgender activist, but I admit I was kinda confused by Elaine's response.

For those who haven't seen it, Elaine's email:

If you meet the criteria to play in gender-based divisions then you can register with the PDGA as "F" or "female." You are under no obligation to discuss your personal information with anyone. No one may challenge your eligibility to play in a female division unless they can provide evidence that you may not meet the requirements. Note that a player's appearance is NOT a basis for any challenge … Some transgender women have voluntarily elected to provide proof of their eligibility to the Medical Committee in confidence. In doing so, any potential question about their eligibility to play in that division could be quickly settled. However this is purely voluntary and not required.

In order to meet the criteria to play in gender-based divisions, you must meet one of the following sets of criteria:

C. Transgender – Male to Female
Players who were assigned male gender at birth and are taking hormone replacement therapy and/or testosterone suppression medication related to gender transition are eligible to compete in a gender-restricted division at a PDGA event only if one of the following sets of criteria are met:

Transgender Hormone Therapy
The player has been taking continuous hormone therapy under medical supervision for a period of at least 12 months before competing in a gender-restricted division; and
The player's total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to the PDGA event, demonstrated by at least three blood tests throughout this time interval; and
The player's total testosterone level in serum must continue to remain below 10 nmol/L in the future. If the player ceases hormone treatment they are no longer eligible to compete in gender-restricted divisions and must inform the PDGA by submission of a completed PDGA Gender Reclassification Form to the PDGA Medical Committee; and
Submission by the player or their physician of the completed PDGA Gender Reclassification Form to the PDGA Medical Committee for evaluation; and
The player is required to inform the PDGA if hormone treatment is suspended.
Gender Reassignment Surgery
Successful completed male-to-female gender reassignment surgery declaration from a physician; and
The total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for 12 months prior to the PDGA event (combination of blood test verified hormone treatment pre-surgery and time post-surgery); and
Submission of the completed PDGA Gender Reclassification Form to the PDGA Medical Committee for evaluation.

what from that email indicates to you that a policy or some policies are not being enforced?

 

[ChrisWoj]

But of course the premotor cortex shifts what it's telling the body over the course of a lifetime, a decade, years, even daily!

In the context of this discussion - that is quite exaggerated. The premotor cortex matures with the body, but if the premotor cortex shifted so much that it changed our perception of the presence of major limbs and external features in such short order we would not be able to survive as a species.

 

[jenb]

At the risk of taking on a tangent, how do non-binary people and detransitioners fit into this paradigm of the "nexus for identity" being located in the "sexed organ of the brain"? Specifically curious as to how "identity" and "sex" mean? Are these transient and unlimited concepts or fixed and limited?

Researchers tend to recruit from gender clinics where participants are motivated to cooperate in order to receive medical transition. As a result, research involving binary and non medical transitioners is lacking. Critics of the research that has been performed often point out the small sample sizes of the existing research in questioning the statistical rigor of that research. Much larger sample sizes have been subjected to research regarding the role of prenatal hormones in determining sexual preference, which bolsters, in the eyes of many, the validity of similar research conducted with smaller sample sizes of medical transitioners. Still the statistical rigor issue results in publication of most of these studies in social science journals instead of neuroscience journals.

 

[dmoore1998]

what from that email indicates to you that a policy or some policies are not being enforced?

What's a better term than "enforced" if we have policies that exist, but there is no requirement that anyone prove they followed those policies? Is "checked" a better term? Monitored? To be clear, I'm not saying it isn't being enforced in that they are allowing people to openly and wildly break the rules while knowing the rules are being broken. They just don't seem to enforce it in any real way.

For example...a speed limit of 55 on a highway, but there is never anyone checking people's speed. That means it isn't being enforced.

Specifically the part of her email that indicates that to me is:

"Some transgender women have voluntarily elected to provide proof of their eligibility to the Medical Committee in confidence."

 

[Golden Tuna]

The brain is referred to as a sexed organ not because of the type of tissue, but the ways in which the tissues are constructed to interact - the pathways developed by them. For example - the structure of the premotor cortex alters somatosensory processing. Someone who desires a transition physically from male to female will have a premotor cortex that is telling their body that they should not have a penis. The penis itself will feel like a foreign object, like it should not be there. There is an insistent feeling that the object is "with" the body and not "of" the body. This is one example of the ways the brain can be sexed, though there are more - hypothalamus, amygdala, etc.

Interesting, though, using words like desires, should/should not, feels, and feeling sound like psychological conversations rather than a biological one

...That's not to say those words depict mischaracterizations on any part, just that it is an emotional situation, not necessarily biological.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Interesting, though, using words like desires, should/should not, feels, and feeling sound like psychological conversations rather than a biological one

...That's not to say those words depict mischaracterizations on any part, just that it is an emotional situation, not necessarily biological.

Emotional is emergent from biological.

 

[jdw80550]

I'm mildly curious which "science" we're talking about?

This being relatively new ground for me, I did a bit of research and learned "transgender" is categorized by psychiatrists, psychologists, and the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders as gender dysphoria, which is also categorized as a mental disorder.

Now, I'm not passing judgement on anyone with a mental disorder because, I also learned gender dysphoria is not all that different than other common mental disorders, such as PTSD, bipolar disorder, & various eating disorders.

Having a bit of history with the piercing and tattoo culture, body modifications are not really new ground. Some extremists have embedded horns under their skin or sliced their tongue in half. Again, clinically referred to as body dysmorphia, but I think some would look at those people and say, "they're ****ing crazy!".

Which brings us full circle back to the transgender conversation... I'm fascinated by how gender dysphoria has soared to the top of the mental disorders charts and become so popular in recent decades. I'm also fascinated by the idea that a brain be gendered? Is the tissue gendered, or are the thoughts gendered? What other body parts (without reproductive organs) are gendered?

Mental issues or disorders do not disqualify you from being human or mean that you are bad. Hopefully we wouldn't treat someone with cancer as an "other" because of their condition.

 

[jenb]

Your laziness to type out what you mean isn't an excuse for having transphobic views that only medically transitioned trans women qualify as trans women. I keep bringing it up in large part because you specifically have commented on other threads that trans women who haven't medically transitioned aren't real women because they haven't "earned it" in your words. It needs to keep being brought up lest your transphobic views become the standard.

That's not what I said at all. I said those who socially transition are women, as well those who want to transition but are temporarily prevented from doing so because, for example, they are minors with cruel parents. Go back and check. But people who claim to be trans women, could transition if they wanted to, but never do? They must not have much gender dysohoria. Words alone are not enough.

You just keep deflecting to this nonmedically transitioned transwoman thing for some strange reason. No one else is talking about them competing in women's' events.

 

[dmoore1998]

That's not what I said at all. I said those who socially transition are women, as well those who want to transition but are temporarily prevented from doing so because, for example, they are minors with cruel parents. Go back and check. But people who claim to be trans women, could transition if they wanted to, but never do? They must not have much gender dysohoria. Words alone are not enough.

You just keep deflecting to this nonmedically transitioned transwoman thing for some strange reason. No one else is talking about them competing in women's' events.

This thread is about the survey, and the survey does call out nonmedically transitioned trans women. Sorry the survey doesn't align with your transphobia towards non-transitioned women though.

 

[Shallows]

In the context of this discussion - that is quite exaggerated. The premotor cortex matures with the body, but if the premotor cortex shifted so much that it changed our perception of the presence of major limbs and external features in such short order we would not be able to survive as a species.

Detransitioners are usually unable to reproduce or have normal sexual functions generally. It's typically one of the prime regrets people have about transitioning.

 

[jenb]

Your laziness to type out what you mean isn't an excuse for having transphobic views that only medically transitioned trans women qualify as trans women. I keep bringing it up in large part because you specifically have commented on other threads that trans women who haven't medically transitioned aren't real women because they haven't "earned it" in your words. It needs to keep being brought up lest your transphobic views become the standard.

Yeah, it's totally strange that I won't just accept your transphobia with a smile. Go away Troll. Women are women...it doesn't matter what "requirements" you put on women "proving themselves" to you.

So for a person assigned male at birth who presents as male some days and female others, and doesn't transition, do you think that person is a cisgender man some days and a transwoman other days? They are transgender. And they are gender fluid. Not a transwoman. Transition, medical and/or social, is evidenced by transwomen. That's not transphobia.

 

[dmoore1998]

Words alone are not enough.

Words alone are not enough. Their brain IS enough though. They don't even NEED the words...simply knowing in their mind that they are a woman is 100% enough. Any statement to the contrary is transphobic.