Pick the most stable disc

[DiscChucker]

Firebird = MORE stable

I posted this earlier in this thread:



All discs have stability. Some have more, some have less. Discs that resist turn and quickly fade are overstable, a term created for disc golf to describe discs that are more stable. Discs that turn easily are understable, or less stable. Discs that fly straight are just plain stable.

So then, looking at Innova's chart, the illustration clearly shows "Stable (Straight)." By your logic, a Firebird is more straight. Really? Ok, you've convinced me. You win.

 

[optidiscic]

STABILITY IS NOT QUANTITATIVE

Stability is a Continuum not an Absolute

 

[mabraddock]

awesome....thread/poll....:thmbup:

opcorn:

 

[jimbosprint]

You definitely make a strong argument with your angry large type.

 

[optidiscic]

So then, looking at Innova's chart, the illustration clearly shows "Stable (Straight)." By your logic, a Firebird is more straight. Really? Ok, you've convinced me. You win.

No by looking at the Innova Chart you realize that a firebird is the most stable driver in that speed...Innova recently ranks from easier to harder to throw in an attempt to end the confusion...also read Innova dscription of the Firebird...this from their web site...

The Firebird is our most popular upwind distance driver. The Firebird's combination of superior speed and stability make it possible to throw drives into the wind with confidence. An excellent disc for throwing long range flex shots. A favorite of sidearm and overhead throwers, too. This disc is designed for professional level players.

Heads exploding all over the internet as the Stable is Quantitative and not Qualitative crowd universe is shifted opcorn:

 

[DiscChucker]

For those people that want to use the word "more," I think it would make sense to include the word "than." In the context of how "over" is being used, it would then make sense to say the, "Firebird is more than stable."

 

[sidewinding]

For those people that want to use the word "more," I think it would make sense to include the word "than." In the context of how "over" is being used, it would then make sense to say the, "Firebird is more than stable."

There's no such thing as more than stable. There is either stable (resists turnover) or not stable (turnsover).

 

[DiscChucker]

No by looking at the Innova Chart you realize that a firebird is the most stable driver in that speed...Innova recently ranks from easier to harder to throw in an attempt to end the confusion...also read Innova dscription of the Firebird...this from their web site...

The Firebird is our most popular upwind distance driver. The Firebird's combination of superior speed and stability make it possible to throw drives into the wind with confidence. An excellent disc for throwing long range flex shots. A favorite of sidearm and overhead throwers, too. This disc is designed for professional level players.

Heads exploding all over the internet as the Stable is Quantitative and not Qualitative crowd universe is shifted opcorn:

Also read Innova's description of the Mako... this from their web site...

"The Mako is a large diameter mid-range disc. The Mako is our straightest flying and straightest finishing mid-range disc. It has the flight characteristic of a putter, with the glide and speed of a mid-range disc."

The Mako is classified in their charts as a stable disc. Notice the correlation between the classification of stable and their description of the Mako as the "straightest" flying/finishing mid-range disc.

 

[DiscChucker]

There's no such thing as more than stable. There is either stable (resists turnover) or not stable (turnsover).

There's no such thing as something being more straight. Something is either straight or it's not.

Nowhere do I see on Innova's chart, not stable. I see overstable (resists turnover), stable (flies straight) and understable (turnsover).

 

[sidewinding]

Also read Innova's description of the Mako... this from their web site...

"The Mako is a large diameter mid-range disc. The Mako is our straightest flying and straightest finishing mid-range disc. It has the flight characteristic of a putter, with the glide and speed of a mid-range disc."

The Mako is classified in their charts as a stable disc. Notice the correlation between the classification of stable and their description of the Mako as the "straightest" flying/finishing mid-range disc.

The Mako I had was stable (did not turnover) but not as stable as a Buzzz and definitely not as stable as a Wasp.

 

[DiscChucker]

The Mako I had was stable (did not turnover or fade) but not overstable (fade) like a Buzzz and definitely not overstable (fade) like a Wasp.

Fixed that for ya.

 

[sidewinding]

There's no such thing as something being more straight. Something is either straight or it's not.

Nowhere do I see on Innova's chart, not stable. I see overstable (resists turnover), stable (flies straight) and understable (turnsover).

In order for a disc to fly straight it has to have high speed stability combined with very little low speed stability. There are only a couple of discs out there that can claim this and the Mako is one of them but try it in a headwind and see how stable it is. I guarantee you'll be reaching in your bag for something more stable when the wind starts blowing.

 

[optidiscic]

Theres most stable and theres evrything in a continnuum going down from there. We all end up on different areas of the continuum based on our ability. For some all discs will be more stable. (weenie arms) For some few discs will perform as overstable (big arms)
In the arms of a weenie arm...the Tee Bird will be very stable but the monster will be more stable so a tee bird is still less stable than a firebird

Abbot n Costello looking at 2 discs stacked on a table

Whats that?
a Tee Bird
What is it
a stable
whats underneath it
a Firebird
whats that?
overstable
No whats under stable
a roadrunner
what, you just called it a firebird
Yes the firebird is under the Tee Bird and it's overstable
What you just said the firebird is over stable then you called it a roadrunner
Oh No the firebird is way more overstable than the roadrunner
Whats the roadrunner
Understable
No you just said a the firebird was under stable
no I said the firebird is overstable its much more overstable than a tee bird or roadrunner
but the firebird is right there under stable
No it's overstable
Wooooooah 3rd base

 

[CwAlbino]

You definitely make a strong argument with your angry large type.

My argument is here, and nobody has made a valid argument against it yet.

very very very few. I would consider the comet the closest thing to stable. Once it beats in a little bit I think it will be true stable. It's the closest thing to stable I've ever thrown though. The buzzz is slightly overstable, but it is high speed stable.

It's like the speed limit, you are generally over it or under it. Majority of people aren't going to be going 55.0 mph. They will be going between about 50 mph and 60 mph, not counting speeders. If you are going 53, are you closer to the speed limit than someone going 52? No, it also will be closer than someone going 59. But we don't generally compare something on the opposite side like that. A leopard is more stable than a sidewinder, it's also more stable than an Xcal. But we just don't compare it that way.

Overstable does NOT mean it has "more stability". What makes a disc truly stable is the the range of velocity to spin of the disc where the advance ratio makes the disc stay gyroscopically stable. A destroyer can be thrown and become high speed stable, but once it slows down, the advance ratio changes and the center of lift changes on the disc making it fade. For a disc to be truly stable, it would need to stay stable over such a wide variety of speeds that at full power it was stable, but even as it slowed down (until a certain point, it can't go straight with no spin) it would still stay straight. To me, that's the comet.

That's really why the comet is such a great learning tool. It can be thrown at full power and stay straight the entire time, only at the last bit of it's flight will it fall, it doesn't really fade out, just falls. ANY disc will fade if you put it up in the air long enough, pushing a comet out it will eventually slow down with air friction enough to just not have enough spin anymore. Being stable like the comet allows you to also put it on a line, and it will hold it. It will not flip over more, or come back to pan out.

 

[CwAlbino]

How about this, Which color looks like it changes the least amount during it's flight. i.e. - what line changes off it's primary direction the least amount

 

[optidiscic]

How about this, Which color looks like it changes the least amount during it's flight. i.e. - what line changes off it's primary direction the least amount

Those guys have cool hair

So obviously the center disc is the buzzz, The red is the firebird, the yellow is the leopard

 

[optidiscic]

Again stability is relative and no matter what the firebird is always more stble than the other 2 and the leopard is always less so and the buzz is always in the middle

 

[DiscChucker]

In order for a disc to fly straight it has to have high speed stability combined with very little low speed stability. There are only a couple of discs out there that can claim this and the Mako is one of them but try it in a headwind and see how stable it is. I guarantee you'll be reaching in your bag for something more stable when the wind starts blowing.

It sounds like you want the baseline for stability to be defined solely on how a disc flies in a headwind. That's certainly one way to look at it. I don't agree with it. But to each his own. Maybe if Old Settlers Park was still the course I played most often than I might (highly unlikely) side with your slant on the idea of stability. But I don't. I have yet to play a course here in NC that has the unlimited openness and treacherous winds that Old Settlers Park provides. As much as I detest the Firebird or any disc with the overstability that is equivalent to it, I will admit that I would certainly carry more than a few discs like it if I had to always deal with strong winds.

I believe defining a baseline in a near windless setting is a more realistic approach to defining stability for a broad range of discs. It creates a median or center point to which discs can be compared or measured accurately.

 

[DiscChucker]

very very very few. I would consider the comet the closest thing to stable. Once it beats in a little bit I think it will be true stable. It's the closest thing to stable I've ever thrown though. The buzzz is slightly overstable, but it is high speed stable.

It's like the speed limit, you are generally over it or under it. Majority of people aren't going to be going 55.0 mph. They will be going between about 50 mph and 60 mph, not counting speeders. If you are going 53, are you closer to the speed limit than someone going 52? No, it also will be closer than someone going 59. But we don't generally compare something on the opposite side like that. A leopard is more stable than a sidewinder, it's also more stable than an Xcal. But we just don't compare it that way.

Overstable does NOT mean it has "more stability". What makes a disc truly stable is the the range of velocity to spin of the disc where the advance ratio makes the disc stay gyroscopically stable. A destroyer can be thrown and become high speed stable, but once it slows down, the advance ratio changes and the center of lift changes on the disc making it fade. For a disc to be truly stable, it would need to stay stable over such a wide variety of speeds that at full power it was stable, but even as it slowed down (until a certain point, it can't go straight with no spin) it would still stay straight. To me, that's the comet.

That's really why the comet is such a great learning tool. It can be thrown at full power and stay straight the entire time, only at the last bit of it's flight will it fall, it doesn't really fade out, just falls. ANY disc will fade if you put it up in the air long enough, pushing a comet out it will eventually slow down with air friction enough to just not have enough spin anymore. Being stable like the comet allows you to also put it on a line, and it will hold it. It will not flip over more, or come back to pan out.

Mako was my Innova comparison (I use that term loosely) since the Innova chart and disc descriptions came into the debate. You saw where that went, "Yeah, but try throwing the Mako into a headwind." I think you can expect the same response to the Comet despite your clear explanation of high speed/low speed spin ratios effecting disc flight.

 

[CwAlbino]

Again stability is relative and no matter what the firebird is always more stble than the other 2 and the leopard is always less so and the buzz is always in the middle

What is Stability?

sta·ble 1 (stbl)
adj. sta·bler, sta·blest
1.
a. Resistant to change of position or condition; not easily moved or disturbed: a house built on stable ground; a stable platform.
b. Not subject to sudden or extreme change or fluctuation: a stable economy; a stable currency.
c. Maintaining equilibrium; self-restoring: a stable aircraft.
2. Enduring or permanent: a stable peace.
3.
a. Consistently dependable; steadfast of purpose.
b. Not subject to mental illness or irrationality: a stable personality.
4. Physics Having no known mode of decay; indefinitely long-lived. Used of atomic particles.
5. Chemistry Not easily decomposed or otherwise modified chemically.


The stable flight of a disc could best be described by those. You guys want to think the disc is stable by it's dependability for yourself. Then okay, your firebird is dependable for you. That's not at all describing the FLIGHT of the disc. You can't describe a flight as dependable. It is unmoving off it's path, and resists change. If you throw an overstable disc on an anhyzer, it changes it's course and goes left. (see picture)

Stable flight = unchanging in it's course. Firebird changes. Leopad charges. The buzz changes, less. (comet doesn't really change at all)