Post-production Hot Stamps are Illegal

[jupiterboy]

I've always found this weird. I get that it's not just about the teeeeeeeny tiny thickness of the stamp, but because of how the stamping process can deform the disc. That's kind of why it seems odd, to me.

I have 3 Nukes, and each of them has radically different shapes - including one that's so weird you'd think it was some weird mold like the ones Quest used to make (which also has multiple hot stamps from the factory).

If the intention is to not have the flight altered, how is it an approved mold can be so wildly out of spec, and still be an allowed disc?

That doesn't even begin to get into the differences in the shoulder and dome of the Comet over the years...

Probably the heat and surface area of the stamp, but also the time the metal stays in contact. It's easy to mess up a foil stamp, but all these would be different and act somewhat differently on different plastics.

But the point I'm getting at, I believe the rule is there to prevent people from modifying their discs in a way they believe would improve the flight. If that were legal, people would go crazy with it.

I think they've inadvertently crafted language that is too restrictive. I suspect they will walk it back, but it is so obviously flawed that it makes one wonder how they could write something like that and not recognize that they were striking a real blow to small shops/custom stamps/etc.

Maybe the big shops pressured the rule because custom stamps were cutting into their primary business. Seems unlikely.

 

[Countchunkula]

Probably the heat and surface area of the stamp, but also the time the metal stays in contact. It's easy to mess up a foil stamp, but all these would be different and act somewhat differently on different plastics.

But the point I'm getting at, I believe the rule is there to prevent people from modifying their discs in a way they believe would improve the flight. If that were legal, people would go crazy with it.

I think they've inadvertently crafted language that is too restrictive. I suspect they will walk it back, but it is so obviously flawed that it makes one wonder how they could write something like that and not recognize that they were striking a real blow to small shops/custom stamps/etc.

Maybe the big shops pressured the rule because custom stamps were cutting into their primary business. Seems unlikely.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the rule predates aftermarket hotstamps (outside of maybe Zonedriven and Huklab, not sure). When DG was small, it was hard for anyone not making discs to justify buying the equipment/tooling needed.

 

[jupiterboy]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the rule predates aftermarket hotstamps (outside of maybe Zonedriven and Huklab, not sure). When DG was small, it was hard for anyone not making discs to justify buying the equipment/tooling needed.

That would make sense. It's due for an update if so

 

[seedlings]

That would make sense. It's due for an update if so

I think that's the whole point. Grow the sport, update the 'rules'.

 

[mostlynorwegian]

Probably the heat and surface area of the stamp, but also the time the metal stays in contact. It's easy to mess up a foil stamp, but all these would be different and act somewhat differently on different plastics.

But the point I'm getting at, I believe the rule is there to prevent people from modifying their discs in a way they believe would improve the flight. If that were legal, people would go crazy with it.

I think they've inadvertently crafted language that is too restrictive. I suspect they will walk it back, but it is so obviously flawed that it makes one wonder how they could write something like that and not recognize that they were striking a real blow to small shops/custom stamps/etc.

Maybe the big shops pressured the rule because custom stamps were cutting into their primary business. Seems unlikely.

I see how a herd of hot stamps could make my f2 Aviarx3 a puddle top, but here's what it did to that disc. Made it the most overstable x3 I have. Truly awful stuff.

 

[roblee]

Some good discussion with diverse opinions. Clearly we are not talking about a new rule rather a statement by the Chair of the Rules Committee that represents his interpretation of Rule 813.01. After market hot stamps are thrown every day at every event at the highest level and broadcast around the world. So what happens now? Section F: "A disc that is questioned by another player or an Official is illegal unless it is subsequently approved by the Director." Who will be that guinea pig? Also, business impacts could be significant. I think Mike's response is correct as a strict interpretation of the rule; however, a caveat that the Committee should offer an official position seems reasonable. Same thing happened when dusting a disc with a chalk bag was declared a violation unless the TD allowed it for night or snow play only. Watch any DGPT media for flagrant dusting . It seems awkward for the PDGA to selectively ignore some rules rather than fix them. I'm intentionally ignoring foot faults & clock faults to keep the thread on track.

 

[Sewer bill]

Selectively ignoring rules is an unwritten rule of the pdga.

 

[BillFleming]

Selectively ignoring rules is an unwritten rule of the players.

Fixed that for you.

The PDGA doesn't ignore the rules.....it's the players who aren't enforcing them. The PDGA doesn't have a massive amount of people that can go to every tournament and observe every card to ensure rules compliance.

However, it would be nice if they had a small committee to review tournament films and then make announcements/reminders about rules they see that aren't being enforced (not penalizing players after the fact....just letting disc golfers know a rule was broken, so it doesn't happen in future play). That would be much better than allowing things to continue until it gets to the point where everyone thinks it is legal. A perfect example: How long had that one pro (Matt Bell I think?) been folding his putter before putting with it? It was long enough that many people thought it was legal and the PDGA had to be very specific in the rules about it. Whereas, if they had let the community know it was illegal from the beginning, they probably would not have had to emphasis it in the rules.

 

[txmxer]

I have made players remove glow crap from their discs at roughly the same frequency that I have seen foot faults called over the years. Both of these are waaaaay more common than calls on time, not that any of them occur on a regular basis.

I was DFL in 50+ am, so I wasn't getting an advantage If you want to call it, call it. It's a rule. I won't be offended. I removed the sticker so as not to cause anyone angst.

And if I play a tournament I pull my glow stuff which I generally carry because my regular rounds start before sun up most of the year.

 

[PastorofMuppets]

We definitely need a physics experiment to show how much flight deviation a post production stamp can actually create. We can eliminate the "warping" the process causes because nothing stops players from heating up their discs and "tuning" them via bending or any other natural warping from use. Just test the variance that the added weight of the stamp/sticker and location on the disc has on the flight and if it can actually be used to gain an advantage. Not because I actually care and believe anyone thinks stamping their disc a few times gives them a competitive advantage and is using it to win tournaments, but more because I don't want tons of MA3 and MA4 cards yelling at each other over stamps and stickers TRYING to get an advantage over someone for calling them on an illegal disc. lol

 

[TheOtherBill]

Ricky had the New Mexico state symbol stamped Destroyers years ago when he was with Innova. Terry asked about it once and he said he had them stamped 3-4 times with whatever was on the press when he went to the factory in order to make them flatter.

 

[mostlynorwegian]

We definitely need a physics experiment to show how much flight deviation a post production stamp can actually create. We can eliminate the "warping" the process causes because nothing stops players from heating up their discs and "tuning" them via bending or any other natural warping from use. Just test the variance that the added weight of the stamp/sticker and location on the disc has on the flight and if it can actually be used to gain an advantage. Not because I actually care and believe anyone thinks stamping their disc a few times gives them a competitive advantage and is using it to win tournaments, but more because I don't want tons of MA3 and MA4 cards yelling at each other over stamps and stickers TRYING to get an advantage over someone for calling them on an illegal disc. lol

This sounds titillatingly boring, and right in line with my ongoing rant with how pointless, and useless middle managerial level decisions like these actively are. They create a raft more problems than they will ever hope to solve. Because, it's just enough info to turn someone into a total knob.
Given that discs come in a variety of weights, colors, and also plastics. There is already a not entirely insignificant range of factors which will already will alter the flight of, well. Any, and every single mold available. A losing battle we shall see.

 

[PastorofMuppets]

This sounds titillatingly boring, and right in line with my ongoing rant with how pointless, and useless middle managerial level decisions like these actively are. They create a raft more problems than they will ever hope to solve. Because, it's just enough info to turn someone into a total knob.
Given that discs come in a variety of weights, colors, and also plastics. There is already a not entirely insignificant range of factors which will already will alter the flight of, well. Any, and every single mold available. A losing battle we shall see.

I'm glad you were able to see my actual point. There are a blue million ways to alter a disc to fly differently post manufacturing, some more egregious than others. Why NOW place emphasis on post manufacturing hot stamping? Especially when they expect the players on the course to enforce it for them. I just suggested another time consuming fools errand.

 

[BillFleming]

I'm glad you were able to see my actual point. There are a blue million ways to alter a disc to fly differently post manufacturing, some more egregious than others. Why NOW place emphasis on post manufacturing hot stamping? Especially when they expect the players on the course to enforce it for them. I just suggested another time consuming fools errand.

My guess for the bolded question is that:
1. someone sent in a question to the Rules Committee about it.
2. someone was called for it in a tournament and an argument ensued.

It's like the folding of a disc....happened forever, so why all of sudden did it become a discussion and an explicit rule? Probably one of the above mentioned guesses.

I would have a tough time telling if a stamp was original or post production...so I doubt I would call a player on it unless it was restamped so many times that it was outrageous. However, I can mostly tell if a disc has been painted vice dyed. I can also spot stickers on a disc. For those, especially the stickers, I will bring it to the player's attention and ask them to remove the sticker.

I've had bigger issues with cardmates though....one only used a marker when I let him know I would have to report him to the TD. It was his first tournament and he claimed he's seen many videos of pros and they don't use markers. I let him know he just doesn't SEE them marking their lies. He then would loudly say "I'm using my marker" every time he placed it. I let it go as an annoyance...although, yes, I could have called a courtesy warning or reported him to the TD. But it wasn't worth it as long as he continued to properly mark his disc. (I heard through the grapevine, a later round card he was on called him on not using the marker and started penalizing him for it).

 

[araytx]

Some good discussion with diverse opinions. Clearly we are not talking about a new rule rather a statement by the Chair of the Rules Committee that represents his interpretation of Rule 813.01. After market hot stamps are thrown every day at every event at the highest level and broadcast around the world. So what happens now? Section F: "A disc that is questioned by another player or an Official is illegal unless it is subsequently approved by the Director." Who will be that guinea pig? Also, business impacts could be significant. I think Mike's response is correct as a strict interpretation of the rule; however, a caveat that the Committee should offer an official position seems reasonable. Same thing happened when dusting a disc with a chalk bag was declared a violation unless the TD allowed it for night or snow play only. Watch any DGPT media for flagrant dusting . It seems awkward for the PDGA to selectively ignore some rules rather than fix them. I'm intentionally ignoring foot faults & clock faults to keep the thread on track.

Mike Krupicka is very generous of his time as Chair of the Rules Committee to answer questions like those that come in, even if they are the territory of a different committee. I've seen him professionally respond to things that are under auspices of Competition Committee, Course Design Committee, Medical Committee, and others, simply because that is how the question came in to the website. He should be commended therein. So be so advised, that which discs are legal might have some overlap with the Tech Standards Committee. As the RC, we deal with the rules of play on the course, though this one is tricky because a disc can actually become illegal during play. So I suspect some overlap. However, know that Krupicka often provides the response in order to show timeliness and professionalism to the person asking. He may have gotten the words in his response from some collaboration, so please let's not call it or think it's "...just Mike's interpretation of Rule 813.01 C.4...." If any member does not like the rule that is one thing. I say work for the changes you believe in; we're a player-driven organization after all. But from my perspective, if one is asked, "what is this rule and what does it mean?", and one is the chairman of the RC, the answer expected should be a response that states what the rule is. I can't see anything else.

And anyone can write him directly to obtain more clarification. It's actually easier than coming on dgcr to express an opinion. Click on PDGA, MORE, CONTACTS, and RC and ask him what you need to know.

 

[PastorofMuppets]

My guess for the bolded question is that:
1. someone sent in a question to the Rules Committee about it.
2. someone was called for it in a tournament and an argument ensued.

It's like the folding of a disc....happened forever, so why all of sudden did it become a discussion and an explicit rule? Probably one of the above mentioned guesses.

You are probably right. I'm much more laid back and casual in the way I see and handle minor rules violations. I make a mental note of it and see if it repeats, looks intentional, or is just ignorance to a rule and then mention it to the player off to the side if I feel there was no ill intent involved. I try to be diplomatic and respectful and avoid angry card energy. I don't enjoy having to referee my card at times, but for the most part it's a non issue. And there's a major difference in whether I call something at a league round verses an A-tier, though there probably shouldn't be, it's probably environment differences. Some people are straight by the book and I get that, and some people let stuff slide and focus on their own game and I get that too.

 

[krupicka]

Questions regularly come in that ask "can I do such-and-such to my disc?" The response that was posted in reddit has been given many times and is the position of the PDGA. The only difference is that this time someone posted the reply on Reddit. It's not anything new. The best way to contact the RC is as araytx said: Use the contact link on the PDGA web site.

 

[Countchunkula]

This sounds titillatingly boring, and right in line with my ongoing rant with how pointless, and useless middle managerial level decisions like these actively are. They create a raft more problems than they will ever hope to solve. Because, it's just enough info to turn someone into a total knob.
Given that discs come in a variety of weights, colors, and also plastics. There is already a not entirely insignificant range of factors which will already will alter the flight of, well. Any, and every single mold available. A losing battle we shall see.

As a middle manager, sounds like I'm going about it all wrong. I bounce from crisis to crisis and spend too much time dealing with bs created by others to create much of my own. I gotta work on being more productive with my time.:\

 

[txmxer]

As a middle manager, sounds like I'm going about it all wrong. I bounce from crisis to crisis and spend too much time dealing with bs created by others to create much of my own. I gotta work on being more productive with my time.:\

There are plenty on both ends of the spectrum and in between.

 

[Sewer bill]

Fixed that for you.

The PDGA doesn't ignore the rules.....it's the players who aren't enforcing them. The PDGA doesn't have a massive amount of people that can go to every tournament and observe every card to ensure rules compliance.

However, it would be nice if they had a small committee to review tournament films and then make announcements/reminders about rules they see that aren't being enforced (not penalizing players after the fact....just letting disc golfers know a rule was broken, so it doesn't happen in future play). That would be much better than allowing things to continue until it gets to the point where everyone thinks it is legal. A perfect example: How long had that one pro (Matt Bell I think?) been folding his putter before putting with it? It was long enough that many people thought it was legal and the PDGA had to be very specific in the rules about it. Whereas, if they had let the community know it was illegal from the beginning, they probably would not have had to emphasis it in the rules.

I have played at one worlds and watched a lot of their worlds events. Never had my disc weighed, never had my wing profile checked for compliance, bought discs with nearly impossible to remove stickers with pdga printed on the barcode, saw many of those stickers on the discs in play during that worlds.

I have never seen a scale or a go no go gauge for all the wing profiles they have approved used at any event I have played in or watched.

Guess how much my CT challenger weighed that I putted with at world's with was? I practiced with a couple pros for that worlds event who's putters felt even heavier than mine and I know from my triple beam before I flew to Kalamazoo I was 182 grams on my CT challenger.

They ignore rules because it's convenient. They need to just cut the nonsense rules out and stop trying to offload them onto players to judge. Look I love my disc golf buddies but I have been around for a long time and the average disc golfer is too dumb to change a spare tire without hurting themselves, now there's 220k more pdga members and my point is even more true, the rules need simplified and I'll give the pdga credit they are actually trying.

Still a long way to go and a lot of rules to wipe out of the book. They called them growing pains more than a decade ago and all I see is the funding base has grown drastically and the rules are still difficult
To nearly unenforceable and still convoluted.