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[Innova] Problem With Innova's Factory Store

TurnedOver

Par Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2021
Messages
122
Location
Long Island, NY
I purchased 8 165-169 gram DX Leopard3s in 2 orders over the past month from Innova's Factory Store. (I like to throw the same disc many times during fieldwork.) I'm excited to use these since I recently graduated from the 160-164 class!

But these new discs don't fly as expected. After calibrating and testing my scale, I weighed each disc and found 5 that were 161-163 grams!

Angry and annoyed, I sent this message to customer service:

Hello,

I purchased 8 DX Leopard3s in 2 orders over the past month. I requested 165-169 weight but received 5 that are of a lower weight class.

These discs are marked 166 or 167 but 5 actually weigh between 161-163. I inked and used these discs before I weighed them. I'd like to exchange them, please.

I was happy with their reply yesterday:

Hello *****,

Please let us know which colors you are referring to so we can begin getting the discs together.

Thank you,

INNOVA FACTORY STORE


I responded "3 pinks and 2 oranges. I'm flexible on color. Thanks!"

But, today I received:

Hello *****,

Unfortunately, we spoke with our manager on this and we have not been given the approval to send out replacements as the discs have already been used and written on. We have however been given the approval to apply store credit to your account to bring the price of the incorrect weights down.


Thank you,

INNOVA FACTORY STORE

I'm not happy with this. I understand weights may be off by 1 to 3 grams. But these are in a different weight class and I can feel the difference when throwing. That's the reason why I weighed them!

It's unreasonable to expect me to weigh each disc before using them. They're supposed to weigh and mark them correctly.

Has anyone had similar problems with Innova? I wonder if they're currently pushing a mismarked batch of DX Leo3s!
 
Typically discs will scale heavier than lighter than marked in my experience.

I'm curious, how do they not fly as expected? 161 divided by 167 is 96.4% so you're saying you can tell a 3.5% difference by feel?

I'd be willing to bet if you place an "incorrect flying" L3 next to a "correct flying" one on a flat surface the nose of the incorrect one will set noticeably lower than the other. The difference in the mold parting line, or where the two pieces of the mold meet, will 99.99999% dictate how flippy or beefy the disc will fly compared to the same mold, regardless of weight.

So in other words it's possible to have a 175g L3 that flips more than one of you're 161's.
 
You want to return discs that you've inked?

Absolutely! The customer shouldn't be responsible for finding mismarked discs before inking and using them. These are more than the usual (and expected) 1-3 grams off.

Weights can be chaotic, but your approach leaves me recalling too many bad experiences working in customer service to empathize.

I'm concerned about my approach. What's wrong with my approach?
 
Typically discs will scale heavier than lighter than marked in my experience.

Yes, my experience too. Usually, they're off by 1-3 grams. These are off by 4-6 grams and I can see the difference in flight.

I have some actual high 160's Leo3s to compare. I also have many Innova molds that don't have this high variance in weight (KC Aviars, Roc3s, Teebirds). I think they made a bigger mistake on these than they usually do.
 
Weight doesn't matter much in regards to stability, wing height does

Sent from my M2004J19C using Tapatalk
 
I'm concerned about my approach. What's wrong with my approach?

I'm not going to buy a new Metallica shirt, wear it to their show, have Lars sign it, and then demand that Hot Topic accept an exchange because the fit was too snug. Now, that's mostly because I hate Lars, and would consider his signature to be a net negative, but also because one should attempt to return the product before modifying its value.
Wait, are there still Hot Topics?
 
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My gut reaction is that it's your fault for inking the discs and wanting to return them defaced, and Innova is doing you a solid with the store credit. You kind of accepted them in the act of inking them. It sucks that they don't weigh what they claimed. And weight matters with discs, and they should know that. Guess it comes down to whatever guarantee they made about weight tolerances. But yeah, you essentially ruined them (from the vendor's perspective) before you decided they were unfit.
 
I was completely unaware of weight classes until today. I prefer featherweights I spose. And getting a welterweight instead might make me mad.

It's not just Innova. They're dx Leo 3's. Smdh.
 
I think there are two important lessons here:

1. If you care that much about a 5 gram difference then you should be measuring weight first. Especially if you just happen to have an accurate scale lying around.

2. Innova's customer service is much nicer than I would have expected given the situation.
 
I think there are two important lessons here:

1. If you care that much about a 5 gram difference then you should be measuring weight first. Especially if you just happen to have an accurate scale lying around.

2. Innova's customer service is much nicer than I would have expected given the situation.

This is 100% right. If you're anal enough to notice 5g difference when you hold the disc and throw it, you should be detail oriented enough to weigh the disc before inking it. On the bright side, you learned this lesson for the price of 5 DX discs, not something far more budget breaking. It's not like you bought a new Corvette (car, not disc), drove it for a couple of months and then noticed it had the wrong type of tire on it. Then I'd have sympathy, but for ~$50, call it a cheap lesson learned.
 
I'm not going to buy a new Metallica shirt, wear it to their show, have Lars sign it, and then demand that Hot Topic accept an exchange because the fit was too snug. Now, that's mostly because I hate Lars, and would consider his signature to be a net negative, but also because one should attempt to return the product before modifying its value.
Wait, are there still Hot Topics?

This a million times. Plus, not only were they inked, but you threw them. I would take your store credit, get something else, and learn how to throw the others.
 
Absolutely! The customer shouldn't be responsible for finding mismarked discs before inking and using them. These are more than the usual (and expected) 1-3 grams off.



I'm concerned about my approach. What's wrong with my approach?

You're the ******* here bud.
Throw the discs, learn them, be better. It's a $6 piece of plastic
 
Yes, my experience too. Usually, they're off by 1-3 grams. These are off by 4-6 grams and I can see the difference in flight.

I have some actual high 160's Leo3s to compare. I also have many Innova molds that don't have this high variance in weight (KC Aviars, Roc3s, Teebirds). I think they made a bigger mistake on these than they usually do.

PLH is going to be a bigger change for you than that weight.
 
Mistakes are bound to happen when you are going through the volume of plastic they are. Plus the big push to get stock caught back up.

I just got the latest run of Pigs. They had quite a bit of flashing and plastic strings hanging. Couple minutes withs sanding block fixed the problem.

I also had an issue with Valks being under weight. Lemonade out of lemons I just used them for tunnel shots and easy turnovers.
 
Wouldn't surprise me if they expect humidity to increase the mass by up to 3% for base plastic discs after they come out of the machine and just mark them that way. This would be highly dependent on the plastic pellets & environmental factors when they were molded.

If these were determined F2s and separated at the factory, they may have weighed them immediately when adding the mold debossed in the bottom instead of when they would have gotten stamped for a non-F2. Stamping happens after cooling on shelves for a couple weeks to my understanding.

Heres an excerpt from Marshall Street's Newsletter from Oct 2018
Regarding Disc Weights
The Hydroscopic Effect


By Jason Southwick

Almost a decade ago, Marshall Street became the first disc golf retailer to weigh every disc. It was right after we purchased our first digital scale, along with a 200-gram weight to check its accuracy. We noticed the weights that manufacturers pen on the bottom of discs were often off by one or more grams.

One thing I imagined for years, was that the Innova people who weighed the DX discs must be an entirely different group than the people who weighed the Champion and Star. The DX crew consisted of Eagle Scouts (presumably CE Eagle Scouts), and important voices in the church choir. The kind of people who could find food on Survivor, and would give you the bigger portion, because that's what perfect people who weigh every disc perfectly would do on a desert island.

By contrast, the Star and Champion weighing contingent is holed up in one of their parents' basement. A broken scale sits on a table next to a bong, out of which curls a wispy band of smoke. One guy holds a disc in his hand, as if to judge its heft, and inquires to no one in particular, "167?" He gives it another little shake and declares, "Definitely 167...Who's got the Sharpie?"

Another thing violating our sense of propriety were Discraft's weight range stickers (e.g., 167-168), the ones that adhere to the inner rim as if their life depended on it. We understand that a gram or two doesn't make a noticeable difference in the physical universe of disc golf. Nevertheless, knowing the exact weight of the disc in your hand seems like a fundamental right, as well as psychologically soothing.

Then there's Gateway, founded and managed with a light hand by my friend David McCormack. Their weights have always been the least accurate. One reason for this, I learned, was that on Gateway's production line, discs are first weighed and THEN trimmed. David insists that they can tell whether the extra plastic that gets squeezed out along the parting line - where the top and bottom halves of the molds meet - is a half gram, a whole gram, or a gram and a half. Oh really?

In this early phase, most likely after weighing a bunch of Wizards, I offered to send Gateway an accurate digital scale. David said they had tried a bunch of $100-$200 digital scales, and all of them broke. (Gateway uses triple beams.) We proceeded to buy, use and break several $100-$200 digital scales in very short order. Then we purchased the OHaus SC Series 200g digital scale, that'll weigh discs up to 200 grams to 1/10 of a gram. We've used them every day since 2009, and we've replaced maybe two or three.

It was about this time that David McCormack, writing on the PDGA's Discussion Forum, talked about the hydroscopic effect - the ability of certain plastics to absorb and retain water, and hence weight. David claimed this could add a gram or two to a disc, but he was contradicted by a seemingly knowledgeable poster who claimed David's math was off by a decimal point or, in other words, by a factor of 10.

We'd eventually realize that David was right and that the seemingly knowledgeable guy was wrong. We had begun to notice that many of the discs that had been sitting on our racks for a long time had gained up to a gram. We began calibrating our scales more often.

Then in 2013, Prodigy Disc, deeply involved with reinventing the wheel, noticed something strange. Multiple PDGA World Champion and Prodigy executive David Greenwell told me a story about weighing stacks and stacks of brand new Prodigy discs. Then moving the discs, and the same scale, to a new location and weighing them again a few weeks later, only to find out that the discs were now, on average, two grams heavier. It was baffling.

Subsequent conversations with disc golf manufacturers corroborated our suspicions. Certain plastics are indeed hydroscopic. So a premium plastic disc produced, say, in Sweden, and stamped accurately with a weight of 168, might tip the Marshall Street scales at 170 by the time it reaches Leicester.

Finally, one Facebooker asks, " ...I've had discs marked 175 that weigh 178-179 on my calibrated scale. I tend to think manufacturers don't like to grind up overweight premium plastic discs that are almost in spec."

Agreed, and I'd also be hesitant to grind up a perfectly good (albeit technically illegal) disc, especially since once you start playing with it, no one's ever going to know, because no one ever checks. Or, for that matter, really cares...as much as we do at Marshall Street.
 
So you requested 165-169, you understand they may be off by 1-3 grams (meaning they could be in any range from 162-172), they are 161-163, and you're mad, but they're pretty much right in the range of what you say you expected. And that's ignoring the fact that you probably don't have an insanely expensive and insanely accurate scale, which could also be off by a few grams at minimum.

You got really lucky they are giving you a credit considering you inked and threw them, and that you're basically just saying "my scale is different from yours, i want to trade for discs that my scale will say weigh a certain amount". You may be putting too much stock into how accurate you think your scale is.
 
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