Pushing/balancing off back leg

[Thediscgolferguy]

Socradeez, I appreciate your reply, I could not agree more with what you're saying.

I've been playing for a few years only, and recently when I wanted to commit to learning backhand his videos were really enticing
Because as you've pointed out, it's how well he sells it, but it is also so sneaky, it's so "secret". He got it all figured out and to learn the secrets you got to join his Patreon (which is extraordinarily expensive now for the higher ties - taking into consideration that he is not a pro or someone with real authority in the field of disc golf)

200 dollars is a lot for a one-hour form review, including two live group sessions and some additional videos (that most content creators/coaches give for free. That is his coaching program, which you can also buy right above 100 dollars, with no personal guidance. That's basically passive income, what a great sales technique - but is it worth it?

So, honestly, I was pretty skeptical at first coming across him, but I must say that he highlighted some things like the left arm, and the idea of the throw being a slingshot that really resonated with me, for sure this is all well-known knowledge for disc golf nerds, but for the beginner, on youtube that does not grasp the complexity of the throw and get to know if you use your left arm you can gain 100 feet, wow, so enticing.

When I started to use the left arm in the field I got some good results myself, and I decided to give him a shot as a coach, back then the prizes were pretty good for 1on1 coaching and I thought why not just try the guy to see what he is about.

So I'd decided to give a little review here, I imagine other people might find this thread and look him up so, hopefully, this can be of use to people that are interested in what he offers.

Sling shot disc golf review

First,, I'd say his discord and all did not feel very professional, he'd often say he'd do things like uploading the recent live session, but so many times it never got done, I mean that was a big sign for me as soon as I joined because I'm paying for that, and they were often left un-uploaded with no reasoning why. Also, the whole community just had a certain cult-ish feel to it, with no one asking critical questions of sorts about his teachings. This also shows so well in the youtube comments where people praise him as a messiah because he's the only one to know how to teach the backhand technique, he seems to attract followers, not students with love for the game.

I did two coaching sessions, I used to turn away a lot in my X-step as most beginners do, and also to land with duck feet. I did expect him to point out that my left foot was pointing way too far away from the target, but when I asked him about it my left foot was okay, I just had to step sideways with my right foot, but if I would have taken his advice, and not work on getting more sideways in the run-up, I'd have no space for the disc to come through as I would be lining to far left of the target.

I'd say this is a very simple, basic-form piece that most seasoned players can identify. But he did not.

All in all, he just seemed extremely unprepared, in my next session he had no idea of how my form had changed from the recent session as he obviously did not take his time to review both recordings and just the way he communicated I could sense that he was not really prepared for our session. Well, actually he was prepared with one thing, and that was how to sell me a more expensive Patreon membership level, and almost the first 5 minutes of our session he would ramble about the new amazing program he'd created. I did not ask for that at all, I wanted to get my form reviewed, not listen to some gospel about how amazing his new exclusive training program was. This is not something that is okay to bring up at the beginning of a one-on-one session.

I've worked in sales myself, and I can see how he is coming from that perspective of selling his product, it seems like his most important thing. I had to quit selling electronics myself, simply because it did not give me much meaning personally - but also a part of it was that if I wanted to sell even more than I did, I had to be sneaky, I had to sell screen cleaners for people buying TVs even though I knew that the screen cleaners themselves are no better than a washcloth with some water for example.

With him, I get the feeling that he's being sneaky, he tries to sell me things that I have not asked for without giving me what I'd already paid for, it's almost at a point where it's not even sneaky anymore. A good salesman listens to his customer, ask them about their needs, and identifies and gives them the product that serves their needs. A good salesman is also prepared and makes his customers feel like their time is being valued and is trustworthy, so if something is promised, it will get delivered. And if they don't at least there will be communication about why that is so.

My experience is that he is a salesman, a sneaky one. He does not seem open to critique which is a huge warning sign and some of his advice does not seem to be correct, and efficient, and they are possibly unsafe ways of learning how to throw a frisbee.

And for whoever out there who wants a quick fix, there is none, it's not an easy thing to throw a disc 400-500 feet and I'd like to express my gratitude to all the contributors here on disc golf course review who really has a love for the game and a passion and commitment to learning proper form. There are so many here giving to the community out of this good-hearted energy.

I've watched Sidewinders drills many times and struggled, but it's not something that just comes to you easily all at once, the more I've learned the more I keep learning, it took me a long time to truly understand the left leg and how it should work in the throw, but it took my many hours, rewatching drills before it all clicked and I got it, and I get a felt sense of the different way it made my throw feel - so much more effortless. I also think that a lot of the information here on the site is not the best for beginners (maybe something could be done about that, making a thread or something that is more exclusively for beginners and just really focusing on the basics in a simple manner, if that does not already exist?) Nevertheless, there is a lot of good content on Youtube, but my personal recommendation, if anyone wants to learn proper backhand form (he does not throw or teach forehand) is to steer away from sling shot disc golf.

 

[jupiterboy]

What's fast and easy in life? Getting suckered.

 

[Brychanus]

Yep, How to get stuck correctly.

vs free wheeling.

Note how much more pelvic and rear foot rotation Drew and I end up with by not trying to rotate it, and by finishing balanced on front leg. I'm not a doctor, but the motion pattern and finishing like Coach T doesn't look healthy IMO.

Try to twist/rotate your rear foot/leg to swivel your chair/pelvis, vs what I teach:

Can confirm that twisting to swivel the chair seems impossible without cheating/compensating, and doing it with any weight on it is exhausting and can be painful! Ouchie knee!

BTW, as you know I've been kind of obsessed with Gibson's lower lumbar twist and knee snap. He recently had less lumbar twist (you still see it in some shots) though he still clearly has a knee snap. I might be able to explain both & why they're related. I wonder what you and others think. Also involves a cautionary note from my own recent form work.

Gibson montage for reference:




SW22's image made me realize that maybe, just like his old form, Gibson is landing slightly behind & out of ideal leverage on his front leg even today. I noticed that the fundamental issue has always been there (at least since 2013), and he built his form around it. Here we go.

First, notice that Gibson's knee leaks a bit forward of the CoG in his practice follow through in the SW22 image.

Also notice that as his off arm move evolved from a swedish/lever arm style (2013) to a swim style (2014 onward). In 2015 onward, his swim move comes fairly deep inside his upper body and posture. In 2015 he was swinging around the front knee into follow through unlike most top pros, just like what would happen if he performed an actual swing using the practice motion stillframe in SW22's image.

Then by 2017, Gibson's form looks very compact and very explosive. But watch again closely for that knee snap and swim move coming tight inside his upper body. What's going on there?

What I think happened is that Gibson, seeking control but wanting to keep/grow his power, started to get all of his torque wound up behind that plant leg & knee. Since he doesn't have his weight dropping into it quite like dropping directly into a can crush, he found leverage in two ways: (1) by using his off arm to help collect, drive, and torque the force just behind his plant knee, and (2) needing to add leverage through the plant leg to make sure he doesn't blow past and around his leg/knee into follow through. The knee snap is the after image of him compensating - he MUST do it or he will end up swinging around his front leg like he did in 2015. You can even still see the fundamental issue was there in his max distance drive in 2019. Knee snap, and the momentum still carries around the way it did in 2015 as he recoils and follows through.

I almost fell victim to this same issue while reworking my standstills - my body was trying to get torque force from the off arm when the deeper issue was how I was shifting my weight into the crush. And as usual it was a complex interaction between body parts, mechanics, posture, and so on. Gibson's tale is still ongoing, but this is a case where I'm really glad I'm benefitting from keen eyes and willing to back off and course correct as soon as I learn I'm doing some that might not be ideal.

Who am I to say? I don't throw 600'. Maybe these adaptations are adding compact power (I suspect they do), but what would happen if we rewound Gibson's form evolution around a different plant and brace? I do think it's telling that other top throwers have not had this particular form evolution and their knees and lumbar regions look different and possibly safer. And of course, this isn't a hit on Gibson - I love watching what he does with a disc. But I'm still wondering what will happen when he gets into his 30s and beyond. I would also imagine that these issues are related to some of his inconsistency downrange - he's still a breathtakingly skilled pro, but there are guys throwing as far and now farther with more consistent hits and less OB.

For my part, I want to learn to swim as well as possible for as long as possible. Let the swim move aid the shift - a partner, not a compensator. And most of our drive legs need to get back in the shop to help get there!

 

[SocraDeez]

So I'd decided to give a little review here, I imagine other people might find this thread and look him up so, hopefully, this can be of use to people that are interested in what he offers.

Thanks for sharing your experience, and thanks for joining our community here.

Hi guys, just want some debate around this, as I understand most people in here say you don't push off the back leg, it's rather just an weight shift from left to right, I also believe this to be the case, but I still think he might have a point about the "balancing" act on the left leg which I guess should help with the coil and also to get the most maximum weight shift on the front leg right before the throw.

Sorry that I communicate in a way that can be hard to understand or follow. You've already got the hang of most of it conceptually. There's some truth to the "balancing", but it shouldn't be a pause or hitch like Slingshot demonstrates. It should be more like a smooth bearing of your body/ transition into the other leg. The best analogy that helped me personally is the walking motion. How does it feel to walk and transition from one leg to another? It's definitely a complex balancing act of sorts.

On the coil point - we generally want our legs to lead our arms, but it's easy to get excited and start coiling the upper body/throwing arm away from the target early. A good way to practice the feeling is in standstill form. Use your back leg to start the movement of loading away from the target or coiling. The throwing arm follows. A movement analogy would be starting to walk forward. It's true that when your gait gets going, your arms seem to swing with the off foot or foot not contacting the ground. But they are actually following it.

Take a step forward with your rear/back leg (whichever it is for the disc golf swing). For me, this is my left. Your throwing arm should not start to swing forward as you step. Most people probably get a little counter swing (throwing arm seems to move backwards) as you step forward with the rear/back leg. Then, the rear/back foot plants (in this forward step), and you swing your throwing side forward over/around it. Focus on the feeling of your throwing arm swinging forward over/around the back foot contacting the ground.

It's very easy to sequence this when you walk forward & much harder moving laterally side to side.

This video makes no sense. The premise is that most ams are stuck on their front? I thought that most ams are stuck on their rear and dont weight shift fully.

Most ams probably are stuck on their rear leg because (for RHBH) we are so accustomed to throwing our right arm off our left foot. However, another amateur problem can also be to throw the back arm off the front foot.

Is Jelezny pushing? Would that even be what matters in this move? How would his drive foot kick up dust or gravel if he wasn't pushing? Puzzle through it:

Is Shiying pushing? Is this move or Zelezny's better? Why or why not?

Neither are pushing. Zelezny's just quicker in transition. Here's a cricketeer demonstrating the same concept:

 

[Thediscgolferguy]

Thanks for sharing your experience, and thanks for joining our community here.



Sorry that I communicate in a way that can be hard to understand or follow. You've already got the hang of most of it conceptually. There's some truth to the "balancing", but it shouldn't be a pause or hitch like Slingshot demonstrates. It should be more like a smooth bearing of your body/ transition into the other leg. The best analogy that helped me personally is the walking motion. How does it feel to walk and transition from one leg to another? It's definitely a complex balancing act of sorts.

On the coil point - we generally want our legs to lead our arms, but it's easy to get excited and start coiling the upper body/throwing arm away from the target early. A good way to practice the feeling is in standstill form. Use your back leg to start the movement of loading away from the target or coiling. The throwing arm follows. A movement analogy would be starting to walk forward. It's true that when your gait gets going, your arms seem to swing with the off foot or foot not contacting the ground. But they are actually following it.

Now I think about the weight shift this way: My left leg as a "pogo" stick falling forward, and then I try to lean my glutes towards target (hershyzer drill) and just falling into it, feels more effortless then my previous way, I feel like it really helps getting all that momentum towards target and without any effort.

On the coil part, sound like a nice way of thinking about it to get more lag in the upper body, I'll definetly try this out :thmbup:

 

[crd 81]

To sum up: SW22 is a real homie who throws down knowledge for free while Slingshot is a grifter.

 

[blayed]

In the wild:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CkOvAKyvTrF/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CkeIe8-vZ3K/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=

He said he is throwing 510ft now but is expecting to hit 650 next year

 

[Thediscgolferguy]

In the wild:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CkOvAKyvTrF/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CkeIe8-vZ3K/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=

He said he is throwing 510ft now but is expecting to hit 650 next year

Hmmm

 

[Thediscgolferguy]

I mean in the (wrong) example he seems to just rush the throw and weight shift, and I mean his (correct) example looks better regarding the weight shift as it looks more like a balancing/falling from the left leg. But for me it looks like his brace is not really stopping his momentum that well, he kinda bents his knee quite a lot and it comes forward towards his toes over his ankle. Even though his upper body tips forward in his (wrong) example, his brace seems to be better there.


So turning his left side towards his target and loading himself on the back leg, I really like, I feel like that's a decent way to word the feeling when the left leg comes into the X-step and you want to maintain balanced and coiled up against it, and then he shows what we should not do, to just already have the weight forward, so basically he's saying we should coil against the left leg and then weight shift. His throw with walkup looks like a decent weight shift, but when he does the standstill it looks really forced to me, pushing his leg forward. That's what I often feel with many new teachers, they teach things they're not really doing, at least it appears like that to me, but I'm no expert, just trying to learn.

Looking at the other video example the first one with an X (wrong) looks like a decent weight shift. The other one which he says is correct seems really awkward and unbalanced to me, and it does not look like this is really what he is doing in his regular walk-up throws.

 

[Thediscgolferguy]

Apparently, he says this is what Paul and Simon have mastered, they're the only pros he is using as reference for this special technique...

 

[crd 81]

Inadvertently or not and to his credit, Slingshot (SS) recognizes a particular problem--people going past their brace. He offers, however, the incorrect solution-- the "squish the bug" mechanic. There has to be a shift of weight into the brace and not just strictly pivoting the back hip and foot. The fix to the problem is properly shifting from back leg to front leg while maintaining a good brace.

The issue that hurts his credibility more is not simply being wrong about technique but that he is monetizing his "advice". I think less people would be giving him criticism if he wasn't trying to sell his teachings.

 

[Brychanus]

Apparently, he says this is what Paul and Simon have mastered, they're the only pros he is using as reference for this special technique...

It can take some time for the eyes to get sensitive to these things with so much complexity going on in the swing. Sometimes different camera angles and earlier form models help you visually model what's actually happening. None of the shifts shown in SS or that Instagram account look like pro weight shifts to me.

Compare Simon's or Paul's rear foot heading into the swing to Slingshot or that other guy.







Puzzle through: why do Simon and Paul's rear foot appear to roll under as part of the shift with the toes further back than the heel? How would they sweep their leg into the plant moving off the rear leg with the ball of the foot staying fully planted like Slingshot or Instagrammer? Why, despite some form variation, are Paul and Simon and every other top player's rear leg swinging in behind them into a counterbalance and SS and Instagrammer's are not?

 

[Thediscgolferguy]

The issue that hurts his credibility more is not simply being wrong about technique but that he is monetizing his "advice". I think less people would be giving him criticism if he wasn't trying to sell his teachings.

For sure, if he was just a random guy trying to help people on the internet I would not care much, but since he's trying to take authority in the field of the backhand throw I feel like that automatically should come with some responsibility so he does not lead people astray, or worse, teach them techniques that can harm them.

It would be great to see some engagement from him in the community and open discussions about what people disagree with him on. But that's the thing, that does not seem to be of importance to him, unfortunately, I think that would really be good for him and his business in the long run to address these things, but that's the crazy thing, people idolize him and put him on a pedestal and there's no room for critique, which can lead to his students doubting themselves when they're not improving when they're just getting the wrong information. But they'll probably feel like "they're just not athletic enough" or "work hard enough"

 

[Thediscgolferguy]

It can take some time for the eyes to get sensitive to these things with so much complexity going on in the swing. Sometimes different camera angles and earlier form models help you visually model what's actually happening. None of the shifts shown in SS or that Instagram account look like pro weight shifts to me.

Compare Simon's or Paul's rear foot heading into the swing to Slingshot or that other guy.

It's crasy how much the rear leg "kick back" here and counterbalances, maybe because of the angle and that he strides quite a lot to the right? My rear foot seems to travel more in front of my, why the pros seems to let it come more behind them on the right side, what is the cause of this big counter balance, and if that is lacking in my throw, what can that point me to?

 

[jupiterboy]

Some of it may be swing plane, like a hyzer is gonna need more counterbalance the more sever it gets.

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[Thediscgolferguy]

I went to the gym and tried to swing some heavy weighted bags, I could really feel much more of the counterbalance of my left leg, it felt like I shifted my weight more sideways and really committed to that. I think when throwing a frisbee I possibly start swinging around my right foot a bit too early so that I possibly lose some momentum, not sure though since when I compare to the pictures from behind the pros I seem to be in a similar position as Paul Mcbeth with my left foot, but it definitely felt a little bit different, but I'm not sure if it translates to the frisbee throw, perhaps it just feels like a more obvious counterbalance because of the heavy object and the much slower movements vs throwing a frisbee.

 

[Thediscgolferguy]

Good comparison there, so basically his left hip get's stuck behind him. I used to do this with my forehand before, it really put some strain on my body throwing that way for a round, could feel it in my glutes and front leg muscles at times and there's no fluid follow trough throwing like that at least for forehand, looks similar as his style of backhand.

 

[sidewinder22]

I went to the gym and tried to swing some heavy weighted bags, I could really feel much more of the counterbalance of my left leg, it felt like I shifted my weight more sideways and really committed to that. I think when throwing a frisbee I possibly start swinging around my right foot a bit too early so that I possibly lose some momentum, not sure though since when I compare to the pictures from behind the pros I seem to be in a similar position as Paul Mcbeth with my left foot, but it definitely felt a little bit different, but I'm not sure if it translates to the frisbee throw, perhaps it just feels like a more obvious counterbalance because of the heavy object and the much slower movements vs throwing a frisbee.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s

 

[Flashblastx]

In the wild:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CkOvAKyvTrF/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CkeIe8-vZ3K/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=

He said he is throwing 510ft now but is expecting to hit 650 next year

This stuff is gold hahaha. Impressive mental gymnastics to convince yourself this is the way to go and only you are right even though no other sport minus baseball (incorrectly) teaches such an awful technique.