Putting set-up, disc leaving hand

[Ocelotl]

Hey rules guru's,

Random question, I recently played a PDGA tournament where a cardmate had a fairly complicated and long setup before a putt, part of the set up was a couple of disc "flips" where the disc left his hand for a moment or two after he had set-up behind his lie. I didn't say anything at the time but it looked a bit odd. Then watching Anthony B. at Am's go through his set-up he does the same sort of deal, tossing the disc out of his hand an inch or two (sometimes less) a couple of times before putting.

At what point, if ever, does this become a "practice throw"?

 

[teemkey]

PDGA rules: Definitions

Practice Throw
A throw of more than two meters during a competitive round that does not change the lie. Provisional throws, misplayed throws, and stance violations are not practice throws.

 

[Vorpaljesus]

Why do you care? Would you call someone on something like that?

 

[JC17393]

Why do you care? Would you call someone on something like that?

I wouldn't call the disc flips since there's nothing technically against the rules about them. Only way I can see a call ever being warranted, let alone actually called is if he's taking more than 30 seconds to go through his "routine". But then that's less the flipping the disc and more the excessive time issue. Total non-starter, IMO.

 

[araytx]

I've had people argue that if you're standing on your mark (aka on the "lie") and that disc actually slips out of your hand during a "disc flip," then that's your throw. I don't agree. I believe a "throw" has to be an intentional propulsion. Those disc flips are not a propulsion IMO. It's a relaxation technique. Players that do that do it all the time, whether it's their turn or not.

 

[Pbmercil]

I've had people argue that if you're standing on your mark (aka on the "lie") and that disc actually slips out of your hand during a "disc flip," then that's your throw. I don't agree. I believe a "throw" has to be an intentional propulsion. Those disc flips are not a propulsion IMO. It's a relaxation technique. Players that do that do it all the time, whether it's their turn or not.

That's covered in the Q&A

QA 12: Is a Drop a Throw?

Q:

My throwing hand bumped a tree branch during my backswing, knocking the disc to the ground, and the disc rolled forward of my lie. Was that a throw?

A:

No. The throw begins when movement of the disc in the intended direction begins. A disc dropped or knocked out before or during a backswing does not count as a throw. Applicable Rules: 800.02 Definitions ("Throw").

 

[Cgkdisc]

AB actually dropped his disc while doing that in the Am Worlds Finals. The marshals looked at each other and checked the book including the Q&A. Correct non-call was made, i.e., "not a practice throw".

 

[JoakimBL]

What could also be subject to clarification is when a player takes multiple disc to his lie/the tee pad, and then drops the disc he isn't going to use. Technically that could be considered a throw.

 

[Pbmercil]

What could also be subject to clarification is when a player takes multiple disc to his lie/the tee pad, and then drops the disc he isn't going to use. Technically that could be considered a throw.

I don't think that's true. I've been gotten on for doing that before, even tho it wasn't actually called as a throw, just because its sloppy. Technically I think the QA I posted above clarifies this:

The throw begins when movement of the disc in the intended direction begins. A disc dropped or knocked out before or during a backswing does not count as a throw.

Anything before or during a backswing doesn't count as a throw.

 

[krupicka]

Yup. As is standing at your lie and tossing a disc 1m back to your bag. That isn't a practice throw. It's a throw.

 

[Pbmercil]

Yup. As is standing at your lie and tossing a disc 1m back to your bag. That isn't a practice throw. It's a throw.

Again, I don't think that's true.

I think that it IS sloppy, and I think as a player we should AVOID doing it, but I think the QA is pretty clear on this one.

 

[krupicka]

Again, I don't think that's true.

I think that it IS sloppy, and I think as a player we should AVOID doing it, but I think the QA is pretty clear on this one.

Which Q&A? I didn't say drop. I said toss. So is a throw less than 2m not a throw? For many its the same motion used when putting from 1m out.

 

[Pbmercil]

Which Q&A? I didn't say drop. I said toss. So is a throw less than 2m not a throw?

Eh. Now that I'm looking at it again you may be right. QA #12 reads:

QA 12: Is a Drop a Throw?

Q:

My throwing hand bumped a tree branch during my backswing, knocking the disc to the ground, and the disc rolled forward of my lie. Was that a throw?

A:

No. The throw begins when movement of the disc in the intended direction begins. A disc dropped or knocked out before or during a backswing does not count as a throw. Applicable Rules: 800.02 Definitions ("Throw").

Emphasis added by me. I can see what your getting at, as a light toss back to your bag would be moving the disc in an intended direction (to your bag). Your probably right. The only room for argument would be looking at a drop vs a toss. Fair enough.

 

[bombmk]

Pb, that technically comes down to the difference between the intended direction and an intended direction.

There is an argument to be had there.

 

[ScottyLove]

Good stuff here... So when David Greenwell was doing commentary a couple years back for Pro Worlds said a guy should get two throws added to his score when he took his stance with 3 discs and eventually just dropped two of them to the side before throwing was wrong.

I trusted he was correct and have been telling folks that anything done after taking stance is considered a throw no matter the direction or distance. Everyone always chimed in with 2 distance fact, but I felt they were wrong based on Dave's commentary about the stance.

 

[bombmk]

Good stuff here... So when David Greenwell was doing commentary a couple years back for Pro Worlds said a guy should get two throws added to his score when he took his stance with 3 discs and eventually just dropped two of them to the side before throwing was wrong.

I trusted he was correct and have been telling folks that anything done after taking stance is considered a throw no matter the direction or distance. Everyone always chimed in with 2 distance fact, but I felt they were wrong based on Dave's commentary about the stance.

Crazy and Greenwell have made sooo many wrong statements about the rules in the GDP broadcasts, that it is not even close to being funny.

 

[coupe]

Good stuff here... So when David Greenwell was doing commentary a couple years back for Pro Worlds said a guy should get two throws added to his score when he took his stance with 3 discs and eventually just dropped two of them to the side before throwing was wrong.

I trusted he was correct and have been telling folks that anything done after taking stance is considered a throw no matter the direction or distance. Everyone always chimed in with 2 distance fact, but I felt they were wrong based on Dave's commentary about the stance.

Depending on how long ago that was, he may have been correct at the time.

2011 PDGA Rule Book

Practice Throw: During a round, the projection of a disc of a distance greater than two meters, or of any distance toward a target, intentional or not, which does not change the player's lie, either because it did not occur from the teeing area or the lie, or because the player had already thrown competitively from the teeing area or the lie. Throws that are re-thrown in accordance with the rules are not practice throws. Provisional throws made pursuant to 803.01 C and 803.01 D (3) are not practice throws. A player shall receive a penalty for a practice throw in accordance with sections 803.01 B or Competition Manual 1.5 B (1).

If a player dropped or set the discs down forward and to the side of the marker disc, after taking a stance at the lie, the player could, by the letter of the law, be assessed two penalty throws (although, good luck getting someone to call and someone to second it).

Which Q&A? I didn't say drop. I said toss. So is a throw less than 2m not a throw? For many its the same motion used when putting from 1m out.

Doesn't matter.

800.02 Definitions

Throw
The propulsion of a disc by a player that results in a new lie.

Ergo, if your lie doesn't change, it's not a throw.

Further to that:

Pb, that technically comes down to the difference between the intended direction and an intended direction.

There is an argument to be had there.

Only if you take the Q&A in isolation from the 802.02, 802.03, and the definition of a throw.

The use of the phrase "the intended direction" rather than "an intended direction" in the Q&A, coupled with the definition of a "throw" in 800.02 and 802.02 and 802.03, it is clear that for scoring and rules enforcement purposes, intention to change the lie, and not merely the propulsion of a disc, is necessary for a throw to occur.

 

[Kodachrome]

i'm gonna start doing this and mess with people.

 

[Pbmercil]

Only if you take the Q&A in isolation from the 802.02, 802.03, and the definition of a throw.

The use of the phrase "the intended direction" rather than "an intended direction" in the Q&A, coupled with the definition of a "throw" in 800.02 and 802.02 and 802.03, it is clear that for scoring and rules enforcement purposes, intention to change the lie, and not merely the propulsion of a disc, is necessary for a throw to occur.

I don't follow what you're getting at. What do 802.02 and 802.03 have to do with it?

 

[JoakimBL]

Intent is only relevant in whether or not your intent is to release the disc or not, not whether you intend to change your lie. If you drop a disc from your lie on purpose, the you change your lie, and by definition it is a throw and should be counted. Even if you place the disc on the ground, it is still a "throw". It is the equivalent of placing a disc in the basket, and that counts as a throw. Saying it's not, is like claiming that you can make a practice throw from your lie. Any throw from your lie, results in a new lie. And it doesn't matter how long or in which direction. So don't bring more discs onto the tee pad than you intend to throw. If you do, leave the teeing area before discarding them. At least according to the letter of the rules.