Recent Scott Stokely Video Finally Gave Me a Forehand

[itsRudy]

As anyone reading my history can see, I have no forehand. Some would argue, I have no backhand Fair enough. I went so far as to add a LHBH to my repertoire, which I don't regret but it's not as applicable in certain situations.

Turns out I was serving the pizza all this time. Which is why it fluttered so bad. And turned into a forehand roller or roller wannabe 99% of the time despite trying not to roll the wrist. Been field practicing (since I don't play summers anymore - ticks, ticks, ticks, lost discs, general brush nastiness, cold weather bear).

Within 15 minutes I went from a 40-70 foot fluttery forehand with moments of 120 feet to getting a 75-150ft forehand with much less wobble and moments of 200ft. Considering my RHBH is 300ft max, damn happy.

Did it two more days and getting a consistent 150-200ft now. And much less unintended forehand roller action.

Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc2vWOKxWI4

The rest here is just extra gravy, like his less important sequel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLNPcojraNE

Another fundamental:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf6qb4_-y3A

Lastly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=501WupKYZlA

If you search his channel, I'm sure there are other good videos on this topic.

 

[Sheep]

Scott is an interesting one when it comes to teaching things, but part of this whole particular situation is he doesn't also explain the other half of the information that people need if you're struggling to understand what he said.

The point of "palm up" or .. wherever he got 'serve the pizza' which I've never heard. ... whatever, is to help advise people to not snap over top of the disc rolling your wrist.

But also also, it depends on the grip that you're using as well.

If you're using the side stack finger grip, you want to throw palm up.
If you're using the more ergonomic stacked finger grip, you can use your wrist to properly pop the shot, which is what he's speaking about. Where the goal when using this grip is to push through to the target. But still, Palm better up than down. Cause if its down, you pulled over on the disc, but you cannot really pull under on it.

So, yeah, part of the palm and serving the pizza issue comes from grip choice, and the 2 finger, or side stacked as I call it is really really hard on your hand anyways because you're side loading your hand and your fingers.
It's okay for touch shots, but not any power shots.

I see his video's helping people which is really good, and its awesome it helped you.
But I cringe listening to him a bit also. He's got a lot of info in his head rattling around, but he's not the most articulate individual.

 

[Skervoy]

So, yeah, part of the palm and serving the pizza issue comes from grip choice, and the 2 finger, or side stacked as I call it is really really hard on your hand anyways because you're side loading your hand and your fingers.
It's okay for touch shots, but not any power shots.

I have to disagree with it being hard on the hand or fingers. In the begining I threw exclusively this way and it never hurt a bit. 110m distance shots were a lot less stressful than the same for the backhand. I think the biggest reason to get the fingers more stacked on the rim is to get more rpms and a more stable flight since you can get more rom.

 

[Sheep]

I have to disagree with it being hard on the hand or fingers. In the begining I threw exclusively this way and it never hurt a bit. 110m distance shots were a lot less stressful than the same for the backhand. I think the biggest reason to get the fingers more stacked on the rim is to get more rpms and a more stable flight since you can get more rom.

You're literally side loading your finger joints and other joints in your hand.

The fingers are not meant to bend that way.

Lots and lots and lots of people throw this way and are successful with it and that's fine.

But, you're still side loading your fingers and hand and the technique for the swing/throw is different than stacked as well.

Which when forehands come into discussion, I don't think anyone really makes that distinction as a lot of times I fix peoples forehands through a grip change, not a form change. Usually from stacked to side, or side to stacked. Because the 2 throws have some differences.

And thats where Scott doesn't make the differentiation. But if you know scott well enough, he ... is a bit of an ego maniac, his way is the only way.

 

[BillFleming]

his way is the only way.

This. He has a forehand video where he says there are three ways to throw a forehand and two are correct and one is wrong.

Correct: Pendulum or Windmill
Wrong: Straight back.

Well, tell that to Eagle and Adam Hammes and some other forehand throwers. They bring the disc pretty much straight back.

 

[Skervoy]

You're literally side loading your finger joints and other joints in your hand.

The fingers are not meant to bend that way.

Lots and lots and lots of people throw this way and are successful with it and that's fine.

But, you're still side loading your fingers and hand and the technique for the swing/throw is different than stacked as well.

Which when forehands come into discussion, I don't think anyone really makes that distinction as a lot of times I fix peoples forehands through a grip change, not a form change. Usually from stacked to side, or side to stacked. Because the 2 throws have some differences.

And thats where Scott doesn't make the differentiation. But if you know scott well enough, he ... is a bit of an ego maniac, his way is the only way.

I think you are overthinking the problem a little bit. The disc maybe weighs a kilo or two at most at peak load for a fraction of a second even if you get a good snap which most wont.

But I agree that the technique is different and I would say it is inferior since it is at the minimum harder to produce the same amount of snap due to the biomechanics if not impossible to get as much spin.

 

[bryantlikes]

Gannon Buhr just posted this video with the same grip advice, but he has a very different back swing.

 

[gwsmallwood]

Gannon Buhr just posted this video with the same grip advice, but he has a very different back swing.

I use the same grip as Gannon and came to it through experimentation. I definitely started seeing improvements in consistency and distance when I started turning my finger pads in toward the rim more. I think that might almost hurt when it comes to putters, though. It generates more torque, which causes my putters to turn over right out of my hand. With putters, I actually get more spin and cleaner releases with a palm-up approach.

I do think the rest of his explanation of how to throw putters forehand is spot on, and taught in a way that makes more sense than the way most people do. No physical reach back. You move in front of the disc and then pop the elbow forward which will trigger the hand motion. I don't think you need the elbow very far in front, and I'm still not sold on the advice of keeping your elbow in close. Maybe for putters, that's helpful, because it helps induce more spin and you aren't trying for arm speed so much.

I think driving is a different animal. I don't focus on my elbow at all when driving. I know I don't keep it close to my body. I've been averaging around 330' lately, and I've had some out around 400, so my forehand drive is pretty good. Your legs become way more important than your elbow when driving.

 

[Rastnav]

I think you are overthinking the problem a little bit. The disc maybe weighs a kilo or two at most at peak load for a fraction of a second even if you get a good snap which most wont.

But I agree that the technique is different and I would say it is inferior since it is at the minimum harder to produce the same amount of snap due to the biomechanics if not impossible to get as much spin.

Tell that to Eagle's shoulder.

 

[Skervoy]

Tell that to Eagle's shoulder.

You do realise that the shoulder have maybe 10x the lever length right? So the force at the fingers and shoulder is quite different.

 

[Skervoy]

I use the same grip as Gannon and came to it through experimentation. I definitely started seeing improvements in consistency and distance when I started turning my finger pads in toward the rim more. I think that might almost hurt when it comes to putters, though. It generates more torque, which causes my putters to turn over right out of my hand. With putters, I actually get more spin and cleaner releases with a palm-up approach.

I do think the rest of his explanation of how to throw putters forehand is spot on, and taught in a way that makes more sense than the way most people do. No physical reach back. You move in front of the disc and then pop the elbow forward which will trigger the hand motion. I don't think you need the elbow very far in front, and I'm still not sold on the advice of keeping your elbow in close. Maybe for putters, that's helpful, because it helps induce more spin and you aren't trying for arm speed so much.

I think driving is a different animal. I don't focus on my elbow at all when driving. I know I don't keep it close to my body. I've been averaging around 330' lately, and I've had some out around 400, so my forehand drive is pretty good. Your legs become way more important than your elbow when driving.

I have had the same experience, I am gaining diatance again after adjusting to pads more on the rim. So 120m is now a normal drive but also cant get too much more on max drive either.

I also try to dirrentiate between touch shots with putters, mostly the high flex shots to the more normal low slot shots. Up high I mimic more of tricep pushdown motion since slinging the elbow hurts. Doing it this way pads on plate is alot better for me at least. When space is plenty I drive with close to a full backswing on all shots but I downtempo the motion and focus more the finger push.


I think a problem is when somebody is pro level at execution tries to be a coach. Coachning requires more knowledge than executing, what you think you are doing is quite seldom what you are actually doing.

Tucking in the elbow is probably the biggest misconception in forehand form. The elbow starts very far from the body and moves inwards through the hit then away again. Close to the same principle as with bh.

 

[Sheep]

I think you are overthinking the problem a little bit. The disc maybe weighs a kilo or two at most at peak load for a fraction of a second even if you get a good snap which most wont.

But I agree that the technique is different and I would say it is inferior since it is at the minimum harder to produce the same amount of snap due to the biomechanics if not impossible to get as much spin.

You can get tennis elbow from operating a small lever in a machine that requires not much effort.
You can stress your hand throwing a frisbee as well.

I think for those who throw that way though, their hand gets a bit more used to it. To each their own.
Injuries are why I got more into coaching, so I can learn and not hurt myself more and try and help others not hurt themselves and enjoy as well.

Tell that to Eagle's shoulder.

Eagle was hyper extending the crap out of his arm throwing forehands, it was only a matter of time before he blew his arm out regardless of how he did it.

I think a problem is when somebody is pro level at execution tries to be a coach. Coachning requires more knowledge than executing, what you think you are doing is quite seldom what you are actually doing.

Tucking in the elbow is probably the biggest misconception in forehand form. The elbow starts very far from the body and moves inwards through the hit then away again. Close to the same principle as with bh.

This is something I try and tell people over and over again.

It's also why I'm not the biggest fan of comparing pro dog form to normal humans. Overthrow does this in some of his video's and its not a good example of how to teach form. Pro's don't necessarily do everything right by the book, but we can analyze their form and grab a lot of information to help others. Each person in some reality needs tailored coaching, and none of it has anything to do with what a "pro does" cause they just know they throw good, they got no clue half the time how to tell you.
And stokley isn't a Terrible coach, but I'd rather have Feldberg coach me than stokley. Feldberg put in time to study form and a lot of what he said is largely ignored by people doing form checks or coaching when a few things he teaches are super super important but nobody else talks about them.

I'm glad people are still chatting about this stuff in here. I'm getting a bit biffed over all these youtube channels out there who don't want to talk at all and discuss and grow our knowledge together. Unless you got x subs, they are not interested.
And I had to call the one out for copying a sidewinder video the other day to which they hurriedly stuck it in the comments.

A majority of what any of us are doing is re-explaining things our way to hopefully help people grasp what were talking about better.

Some people out there are good, but are doing a LOT of ... well "I need money" video's. And those are getting really annoying. And there are some people out there teaching stuff and they have NO clue what they are talking about at all.

 

[Rastnav]

Eagle was hyper extending the crap out of his arm throwing forehands, it was only a matter of time before he blew his arm out regardless of how he did it.

My point was simply that, regardless of the fact that a disc is fairly light, you can still put tremendous load on your joints during the throw. Thus skervoy's point about grip not mattering very much, as load on the fingers will be low, is invalid.

To skervoy's later point, It also doesn't matter that the lever arm exerting force at the shoulder is longer. The shoulder is bigger and stronger than fingers and wrists precisely because this is true. The overall system is exerting, very roughly speaking, equivalent strains on all the joints. In absolute terms, it's easier to damage a finger than it is to damage a shoulder.

None of that means that each joint is equally likely to be damaged, of course. But it does mean we can't simply ignore the potential effects on fingers or wrists.

 

[gwsmallwood]

Tucking in the elbow is probably the biggest misconception in forehand form. The elbow starts very far from the body and moves inwards through the hit then away again. Close to the same principle as with bh.

Overthrow just did a nice form breakdown with Andrew Marwede that shows this really well. Marwede is someone who I think has a great forehand and uses a form that is fairly easily replicated by us mere mortals. He's not throwing 700' bombs like Ryan Sheldon. He's probably hitting 350' on most forehand drives, occasionally hitting 350 - 400, which is what I've managed to achieve the past few months. But he does it by using his lower body and his core more than his arm, which I think will help him avoid the injuries like Eagle and a few others have run into.

 

[BillFleming]

Tell that to Eagle's shoulder.

Eagle never had issues until he tried that 360 forehand throw for a Jomez video. It wasn't his normal forehand throw and he probably never practiced it either.

 

[sidewinder22]

Eagle never had issues until he tried that 360 forehand throw for a Jomez video. It wasn't his normal forehand throw and he probably never practiced it either.

Eagle has been dealing with shoulder issues since at least 2019.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134495
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140393

 

[BillFleming]

Eagle has been dealing with shoulder issues since at least 2019.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134495
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140393

Thank you for pointing that out. I had only been aware of the issue caused by his 360 forehand throw.

 

[Skervoy]

My point was simply that, regardless of the fact that a disc is fairly light, you can still put tremendous load on your joints during the throw. Thus skervoy's point about grip not mattering very much, as load on the fingers will be low, is invalid.

To skervoy's later point, It also doesn't matter that the lever arm exerting force at the shoulder is longer. The shoulder is bigger and stronger than fingers and wrists precisely because this is true. The overall system is exerting, very roughly speaking, equivalent strains on all the joints. In absolute terms, it's easier to damage a finger than it is to damage a shoulder.

None of that means that each joint is equally likely to be damaged, of course. But it does mean we can't simply ignore the potential effects on fingers or wrists.

Broscience....

In absolute terms the shoulder is alot more easy to damage than anything else on the body.

You do know the shoulder is THE most unstable joint in the body right? The lever arm does matter a lot and joints arent designed that any potential lever effect is even across joints. There are a lot of small muscles and ligaments in the shoulder and alot of potential motions and direction changes. Tucking the elbow, slotting lower than shoulder or late cocking it are real dangers. Grip really isnt unless you already are good and can produce a lot of inertia and try something really funky.


I can agree that risks shouldnt be ignored but saying that a two finger side stacked grip is dangerous is pretty dumb. One finger grip is overall adviced against and that I would support 100%.

And as for any sort of evidence I have easily done 10 fh in a row out to 350 with a side stacked grip and if anything is felt it is the shoulder or elbow which handles the biggest levers. Even just holding on with the hand two fingers can support a lot of weight without any discomfort, also flexing the fingers sideways also create tension that hels keep the load sideways.



I bet you that there are at least 100/1 that blow their shoulder or elbow before ever straining a finger in disc golf...

 

[Sheep]

Overthrow just did a nice form breakdown with Andrew Marwede that shows this really well. Marwede is someone who I think has a great forehand and uses a form that is fairly easily replicated by us mere mortals. He's not throwing 700' bombs like Ryan Sheldon. He's probably hitting 350' on most forehand drives, occasionally hitting 350 - 400, which is what I've managed to achieve the past few months. But he does it by using his lower body and his core more than his arm, which I think will help him avoid the injuries like Eagle and a few others have run into.

People give hokom crap over her "weird form" but she's throwing with her body mostly.

But in all honesty, forehands are tough on your body vs a backhand. I had a discussion with Ricky about it a while back. I was showing him how to play the course here for the tournament and we started talking about forehands because it required a forehand shot.

Eagle never had issues until he tried that 360 forehand throw for a Jomez video. It wasn't his normal forehand throw and he probably never practiced it either.

In all honesty to put this bluntly. Don't defend stupidity because what they are doing is working for "that" moment.
Eagles forehand was amazing in the results, but what he was doing to achieve that result was really really really bad. You could see him hyper extend his joints during his forehands. To which some people were like "Well, yeah, he's flexable."

Hyperextending joints damages them over time the more you do it. That's why defending his forehand is kinda dumb to be doing. We can marvel at it as the train slowly wrecks.

I bet you that there are at least 100/1 that blow their shoulder or elbow before ever straining a finger in disc golf...

None of us are doctors and can legit make broad statements like these. However, yes, its very easy to damage the shoulder or the elbow. But I think you forget that our body isn't single joints acting independently of each other. Strain in your hand can have affects in your neck, elbow, shoulder, wrist. Just like your feet can cause you back or neck pain.

A lot of people use that grip, and they do it successfully. Does it mean its wrong? Maybe. Or right? Maybe.
But we can easily look at how the body movies and take some time to work and teach in ways that put less strain on peoples bodies vs teaching them something based on "well, everyone does it and it doesn't bother me." When that could actually cause them issues over time.

That's the whole point of coaching/teaching. Helping people not injure themselves. It's really the base line part of being a coach for any sport. Helping people do better to avoid injury and be more successful.

 

[hisdudeness47]

I mean hell, I'm still trying to figure out which stacked grip is which in this debate.