Reid's Journey to Backhand Mastery

[UhhNegative]

Played a freshly new local 9 hole course yesterday. All holes <240' so its a great pitch and putt practice course with nice teepads and baskets that I can get through in less than 30 minutes. But I played terribly. Was muscling everything in every direction but the basket and couldn't be smooth and trust the swing. Seems like progress is two steps forward, one step back. Old habits die hard, but I took the opportunity to focus on my mental game. In past times I would be super bummed and let it flow into the rest of my day, but I was able to shake it off and just chalk it up to a bad day/not letting my body recover from the 21 holes the day before.

I'm getting a throwing net so I can work on my form and take video a lot easier. This should really accelerate things for me.

 

[UhhNegative]

While on the topic of putting, I've had a few more thoughts:

1) When I watch sidewinder putt, he's holding the disc at even more of a hyzer than I do, but then putts relatively flat, so he's gotta be supinating through the forward swing to make that angle happen.

2) When I watch Simon putt, his fingers come off the disc and go up and to the right as his hand pronates where his palm ends up facing the ground and fingers flying away from the disc (to the right). Lots of other putters have their hand finish like that too.

I can't feasibly figure out how someone would putt and be able to pronate through the release. Like I see the video but its still impossible in my brain. What am I missing here? Obviously it's spin vs push as well, but that shouldn't matter too much in this question, right? There's something fundamental I'm missing here. I feel like I have to supinate my entire arm to the absolute maximum in order to get the disc near flat. So what's going on here?

Do I need to shift my grip more on top of the disc instead of having my hand more underneath?

 

[slowplastic]

Get the back edge of the disc to swing all the way to the front and out of your hand...it's crazy how it works out. I used to have to feel like I was holding the left wing up to have the disc flat so I know what you're describing. Now it just pops through flat every time for me. I also don't have to think about hand angles or anything, just continuing the disc's momentum through to the target.

 

[sidewinder22]

1) When I watch sidewinder putt, he's holding the disc at even more of a hyzer than I do, but then putts relatively flat, so he's gotta be supinating through the forward swing to make that angle happen.

2) When I watch Simon putt, his fingers come off the disc and go up and to the right as his hand pronates where his palm ends up facing the ground and fingers flying away from the disc (to the right). Lots of other putters have their hand finish like that too.

I can't feasibly figure out how someone would putt and be able to pronate through the release. Like I see the video but its still impossible in my brain. What am I missing here? Obviously it's spin vs push as well, but that shouldn't matter too much in this question, right? There's something fundamental I'm missing here. I feel like I have to supinate my entire arm to the absolute maximum in order to get the disc near flat. So what's going on here?

Do I need to shift my grip more on top of the disc instead of having my hand more underneath?

What is really weird about your putt is your elbow is locked out. I think that is more like shoving the disc forward rather than springing it. It puts your grip more to the back of the disc and get less pop/leverage/spin at the end. Think more inverted basketball free throw or granny shot, you wouldn't ever start with the elbow extended or wait to full extension to spring the wrist. The elbow extends and slows to spring the wrist just like driving. I would start with your stance more staggered left/right instead of being so inline. Your rear foot is moving all around in the backswing instead of being a single point of leverage.

I putt on hyzer although the angle is largely irrelevant inside the circle a la Ken Climo's phone book. I'm just putting the weight/ed end of the disc to the apex of the line going through the chains on the way down. After I address the target with the arm/disc, I let it hang/dingle arm straight down and just feel the weight of it and waggle and then sling it. The arm naturally pronates coming into center and supinates to neutral when it's whipped away from center and depending on how hard the whip, the hand may snap back into pronation. The centrifugal force on the disc from the grip and whip also snaps the disc flattish. I'm not trying to pronate or supinate, just springing the weight to the target.

You can see Simon's hand is shaking with the pole right after release and then snaps palm down. Mine does the same sometimes although I tend to finish higher/high five which would be palm down with the arm horizontal...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlYYZFJmtLI#t=1m20s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhiLUjMMyUY#t=3m

 

[slowplastic]

I'm just putting the weight/ed end of the disc to the apex of the line going through the chains on the way down. After I address the target with the arm/disc, I let it hang/dingle arm straight down and just feel the weight of it and waggle and then sling it. The arm naturally pronates coming into center and supinates to neutral when it's whipped away from center and depending on how hard the whip, the hand may snap back into pronation. The centrifugal force on the disc from the grip and whip also snaps the disc flattish. I'm not trying to pronate or supinate, just springing the weight to the target.

This is a really good description of how it feels to me too. I don't worry about the hand angles anymore, and I can feel the weight of the disc down below my hand sometimes or at weird angles when loading it, but I then feel it sling away from me and it becomes flat through natural range of motion of my arm and also me wanting to direct the disc's mass toward the target.

It's similar to how drives are feeling to me now too...I focus on the angle of the disc's wing and nose through that hit point and I don't have to worry about it so much during the backswing or as it comes forward. As long as it gets pulled to nose down through the hit naturally then all is well.

 

[UhhNegative]

What is really weird about your putt is your elbow is locked out. I think that is more like shoving the disc forward rather than springing it. It puts your grip more to the back of the disc and get less pop/leverage/spin at the end. Think more inverted basketball free throw or granny shot, you wouldn't ever start with the elbow extended or wait to full extension to spring the wrist. The elbow extends and slows to spring the wrist just like driving. I would start with your stance more staggered left/right instead of being so inline. Your rear foot is moving all around in the backswing instead of being a single point of leverage.

I putt on hyzer although the angle is largely irrelevant inside the circle a la Ken Climo's phone book. I'm just putting the weight/ed end of the disc to the apex of the line going through the chains on the way down. After I address the target with the arm/disc, I let it hang/dingle arm straight down and just feel the weight of it and waggle and then sling it. The arm naturally pronates coming into center and supinates to neutral when it's whipped away from center and depending on how hard the whip, the hand may snap back into pronation. The centrifugal force on the disc from the grip and whip also snaps the disc flattish. I'm not trying to pronate or supinate, just springing the weight to the target.

You can see Simon's hand is shaking with the pole right after release and then snaps palm down. Mine does the same sometimes although I tend to finish higher/high five which would be palm down with the arm horizontal...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlYYZFJmtLI#t=1m20s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhiLUjMMyUY#t=3m

So I've always heard that you want your elbow pretty much locked out on a push putt. Basically only the shoulder joint moves from what I've seen in all the clinics. Unless you are differentiating locked out from slightly bent but not (conciously) changing. Then I could definitely see how that would be an issue.

I did notice that I move my back foot during the backswing, so instead I need to setup with my backfoot where I want it.

I'm just confused because if I let my fingers off the bottom of the flight plate too early, nothing is holding up the disc so it just falls out. So it seems like finishing in pronation there's nothing keeping that disc on the line. Is it supposed to be held more with index finger/thumb? That doesn't seem right either.

 

[drk_evns]

I would say stop focusing too much on the specific hand and arm movements and just start trying to manipulate the swing with your weight shift.

Just dangle your arm down and start rocking it back and forth using your feet. You'll start to see how to control the power that way.

Feldberg's YT clinic talks about a locked elbow... and that can help with consistency at short ranges, but I've found I naturally add some elbow movement now and the consistency comes from the quality shift from the ground. Make sure you're actually getting weight loaded on your back foot (you can do this with a back/forward shift or more of a down then forward shift).

I like this clinic a lot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBWQGSePtSQ&t=1236s

 

[UhhNegative]

I would say stop focusing too much on the specific hand and arm movements and just start trying to manipulate the swing with your weight shift.

Just dangle your arm down and start rocking it back and forth using your feet. You'll start to see how to control the power that way.

Feldberg's YT clinic talks about a locked elbow... and that can help with consistency at short ranges, but I've found I naturally add some elbow movement now and the consistency comes from the quality shift from the ground. Make sure you're actually getting weight loaded on your back foot (you can do this with a back/forward shift or more of a down then forward shift).

I like this clinic a lot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBWQGSePtSQ&t=1236s

I feel like I'm okay at the weight shift/balance aspect but the grip/feel in my hand is so inconsistent sometimes its releasing early/low like a wounded duck and sometimes I'm holding too long and releasing high.

I'll check out that clinic and try a looser/swingy-er arm to try and feel the weight of the disc. I'm surprised I've never come across this clinic before.

 

[slowplastic]

This is the best I can explain what I'm feeling, and it has really improved my putting about as much as when I figured out a consistent and balanced weight shift.

This pop/hit feels similar to what I aim for in my drives, except I'm pulling/swinging through this motion during throws.

When I kind of show a more full putting motion at the end, look at how much hyzer angle the disc has the whole time until my "release". I don't even think about it, it just feels fine.

Hold shift and use the arrow keys to go frame by frame if needed.

https://vimeo.com/360575581

 

[sidewinder22]

So I've always heard that you want your elbow pretty much locked out on a push putt. Basically only the shoulder joint moves from what I've seen in all the clinics. Unless you are differentiating locked out from slightly bent but not (conciously) changing. Then I could definitely see how that would be an issue.


I'm just confused because if I let my fingers off the bottom of the flight plate too early, nothing is holding up the disc so it just falls out. So it seems like finishing in pronation there's nothing keeping that disc on the line. Is it supposed to be held more with index finger/thumb? That doesn't seem right either.

Even Simon says to lock the elbow and shoulder in that video, lol. If you watch Feldberg putt he definitely bends his elbow significantly. IDK how else you can pop it and spring the wrist?

It's not releasing in pronation. It's snapping/recoiling back into pronation after the release.

 

[Sad2980]

Someone on my card in this weekend's tournament suggested I try to putt anhyzer to flatten my putter lines and it seems to work. It forces me to supinate my wrist through the throw more than I'm used to. Might be completely incorrect, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

 

[UhhNegative]

Easily my best day of throwing yesterday. Out of 9 holes I hit 8 gaps off the tee (tight wooded course). I was focused on two things: not using arm muscle and finishing with my head over my front foot countered by my rear leg extending, almost exaggerating the leaning forward kind of like how Kenny Climo throws. It was both easier power and easier accuracy when I kind of just don't pretend the arm exists except for some focus on the grip. Even the downhill anny putters shots that two holes require (if you don't have a FH) were far easier to aim than before.

 

[UhhNegative]

Also got some putting videos last night, Youtube was not cooperating so hopefully I can get them up today.

 

[UhhNegative]

After looking at said videos, there's no point in posting really. I figured out how to set my stance and keep my back foot in one place during the entire backswing, which feels a lot better. My timing is looking better with a slower backswing and exploding forward during the forward swing, but the disc is coming out of my hand all weird. On video it looks like a split second before I release the disc is soooo nose down and magically it comes out a little straighter. Still had a locked out elbow so I need to let it bend and flex during the back swing and forward swing. Kept my hand on the front edge of the disc slightly longer but still needs a lot of work.

 

[UhhNegative]

Alrighty, went to a field with the dog and wife and got some throwing videos. There's still lots of issue but I think I've made some progress. At least everything feels better. But my lower body doesn't seem to be involved in the throw and lots of wonky things. This is also me just having fun and not really "aiming" so its a little more out of control than I would throw on the course. But I think once I fix the lower body stuff, I know how the upper body is supposed to feel now.

For fun I threw some LHFH and I haven't thrown a full power forehand in a loooong time. Turns out I still have a decent one! Pretty sure I was throwing further than my RHBH. I almost always throw anhyzer though due to my elbow issue. But still pretty fun! I've never seen myself throw FH on a video before.

Forehand:


Backhand shots:

 

[sidewinder22]

Yep better sequence. Same theme going on around here with rear foot/leg not driving the front heel into the plant. Rear knee is locked out into immoveable stance and pushing off heel instead of instep. Your rear leg is good FH, but not BH. It's the same move, just turn everything further back into the plant.

I think you need a quicker shift of your lower body underneath the upper body between your feet with a narrower stride/stance. The drive from the rear instep should push your front heel into the ground quicker which should lag/tilt the shoulders back as your rear foot accelerates the pelvis rather than the shoulders, so the hips accelerate the torso/shoulders.

Work on this in slow/er motion and "standstill", so you have to maintain better balance and can accelerate faster going into the plant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0#t=1m15s

 

[UhhNegative]

Oh wow cool comparison there. Weird thing is that I never put any "work" into my forehand. I just naturally developed it before I knew anything about form. Seems more intuitive.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah I completely agree with the rear leg thing in the BH shot.

In your LHFH, take your off arm elbow and tuck it to your right up to anchor up for the shot. Right now your off arm is pulling around your body behind you to kind of "pre-spin" yourself...it feels like it'll make you faster but instead you just freely rotate instead of getting that anchored off-side feeling to unload the arm against. It will feel tighter or more firm, at least to me. And I get much easier distance and better accuracy.

Most pitchers tend to tuck their off arm like this:

Here's Ricky doing the same thing:

 

[sidewinder22]

In your LHFH, take your off arm elbow and tuck it to your right up to anchor up for the shot. Right now your off arm is pulling around your body behind you to kind of "pre-spin" yourself...it feels like it'll make you faster but instead you just freely rotate instead of getting that anchored off-side feeling to unload the arm against. It will feel tighter or more firm, at least to me. And I get much easier distance and better accuracy.

Most pitchers tend to tuck their off arm like this:

Agree, but it's not really the arm tucking or retracting into the body. It's the swim move FH. The body is swum or pulled forward and tucks into the arm/hand. You can see the swim paddle motion in my forehand, my left elbow/hand doesn't move away from the target after the plant until the right elbow starts crossing my center and the left elbow, catapulting the swing forward of it. My left shoulder never moves away from target.

 

[slowplastic]

The body is swum or pulled forward and tucks into the arm/hand.

..... my left elbow/hand doesn't move away from the target after the plant until the right elbow starts crossing my center and the left elbow, catapulting the swing forward of it. My left shoulder never moves away from target.

Oh wow I didn't realize that. I will have to look at video for my FH from standstill to see what I'm doing. In my mind I am pulling/tucking my off elbow to my core, so I'm not sure if I'm actually pulling it away from the target.