Resting against an object. Legal?

[Shaakes]

Situation: 25' putt, lie is on a muddy slope that I cannot stand on without sliding down the hill. However, placing a foot on the base if a small tree on slope behind lie would allow me to stay on the slope and also allow me to place the other foot behind my mark. I can putt without moving my feet in this situation.

Question: With almost all my weight supported by an object in the field if play, is this a legal putt?

Thanks for any input!!

 

[sisyphus]

I think the simple answer is yes: you may use any non-movable object that is not in front of your lie for support.

 

[JC17393]

Yes, perfectly legal. You can use any object that is no closer to the target than the lie for support when you throw, so long as it doesn't move due to your contact. If the tree you used doesn't bend or lean due to the weight you put on it, you're fine.

 

[Consult20]

Ok regarding the muddy slope stance. Say the small tree was not there so he places his rear foot on the muddy slope and it slips. So he keeps putting it back in place squishing the ground until he his foot is dug in for bracing. He's not actually kicking the ground to create the "backstop", it just occurs naturally from trying to get his rear foot to stay in place.

Legal or not?

And if he were kicking the ground to create a backstop for rear foot bracing, legal or not?

How about the same situation on a muddy natural teepad when trying to throw from a standstill? Either situation legal/illegal?

 

[Pwingles]

Ok regarding the muddy slope stance. Say the small tree was not there so he places his rear foot on the muddy slope and it slips. So he keeps putting it back in place squishing the ground until he his foot is dug in for bracing. He's not actually kicking the ground to create the "backstop", it just occurs naturally from trying to get his rear foot to stay in place.

Legal or not?

And if he were kicking the ground to create a backstop for rear foot bracing, legal or not?

How about the same situation on a muddy natural teepad when trying to throw from a standstill? Either situation legal/illegal?

to the first question, my reply would be that you can take relief for safety as per the rules, but that would be most likely farther down the hill, so likely not safe in reality since you have to then come back up the hill. If they don't wanna take the relief to the nearest safe lie within the rules, then they can find another way to be at their lie. Like from a knee or both knees, sit down, indian style, doesnt matter. You arent guaranteed a comfortable lie, or a lie that suits your shot. Id make them put a foot behind the mini and sit on the hill to throw.

Id say to the teepad questionk, no.
You are purposfully destroying the tee/throwing area for others. But not sure this is covered in the rules with regard to specifically a natural tee.

 

[JC17393]

to the first question, my reply would be that you can take relief for safety as per the rules, but that would be most likely farther down the hill, so likely not safe in reality since you have to then come back up the hill. If they don't wanna take the relief to the nearest safe lie within the rules, then they can find another way to be at their lie. Like from a knee or both knees, sit down, indian style, doesnt matter. You arent guaranteed a comfortable lie, or a lie that suits your shot. Id make them put a foot behind the mini and sit on the hill to throw.

Id say to the teepad questionk, no.
You are purposfully destroying the tee/throwing area for others. But not sure this is covered in the rules with regard to specifically a natural tee.

There is no relief granted in the rules for "safety". At least not free relief. One can take optional relief, with penalty, at any time for any reason however.

You can't intentionally dig down to build up a lie or a "backstop" whether it's on the tee or fairway. Best you can do is lay a towel or some other item with no more than a 1cm thickness and hope that does the trick for traction. Otherwise, you have to make due as best as you can or take optional relief or rethrow with penalty.

 

[Consult20]

There is no relief granted in the rules for "safety". At least not free relief. One can take optional relief, with penalty, at any time for any reason however.

You can't intentionally dig down to build up a lie or a "backstop" whether it's on the tee or fairway. Best you can do is lay a towel or some other item with no more than a 1cm thickness and hope that does the trick for traction. Otherwise, you have to make due as best as you can or take optional relief or rethrow with penalty.

Ok, but if the act of lifting your foot to reposition for a better stance, using only your weight to position your back foot -- not digging in intentionally -- your foot just naturally presses into the mud -- to me that should be 100% legal.

 

[Billolick]

"if you threw it there...throw it outta there" Ray Murray

no free relief for "safety"....only relief for limited situations and spelled out in rule 803.01(A-E)

 

[JC17393]

Ok, but if the act of lifting your foot to reposition for a better stance, using only your weight to position your back foot -- not digging in intentionally -- your foot just naturally presses into the mud -- to me that should be 100% legal.

It is, IMO. If your foot sinks or slips into the mud, there's not much you can really do about it. And you shouldn't be penalized for something that isn't within your control.

 

[Pwingles]

There is no relief granted in the rules for "safety". At least not free relief. One can take optional relief, with penalty, at any time for any reason however.

You can't intentionally dig down to build up a lie or a "backstop" whether it's on the tee or fairway. Best you can do is lay a towel or some other item with no more than a 1cm thickness and hope that does the trick for traction. Otherwise, you have to make due as best as you can or take optional relief or rethrow with penalty.

You gonna make me look for the rule about unsafe/unplayable lies?

803.01 B could apply, 803.02 A would apply if they just wanted to throw from somewhere with better footing, IMO

and part E would apply to the OPs 2nd question directly

 

[Pwingles]

Re; 803.01 B
*depending on the surface

 

[JC17393]

You gonna make me look for the rule about unsafe/unplayable lies?

803.01 B could apply, 803.02 A would apply if they just wanted to throw from somewhere with better footing, IMO

and part E would apply to the OPs 2nd question directly

There is no longer an unsafe/unplayable lie rule. And when there was one, it cost a penalty to get relief. What was the unsafe/unplayable lie rule is now 803.02 (Optional Relief and Optional Re-throw), and those carry a penalty. Note that I was very specific in saying there is no free relief for safety concerns.

Casual relief doesn't apply to mud unless the TD specifically allows for it.

 

[Shaakes]

Good thoughts. Im thinking the following rule would also support my using a tree as a foot support even though my weight may shift the tree during a throw.

802.04.A: A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course. Once a legal stance is taken, the player may not move an obstacle in any way in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to cause incidental movement of an obstacle.

 

[JC17393]

Good thoughts. Im thinking the following rule would also support my using a tree as a foot support even though my weight may shift the tree during a throw.

802.04.A: A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course. Once a legal stance is taken, the player may not move an obstacle in any way in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to cause incidental movement of an obstacle.

Which part would allow you to shift the tree? Least movement of the obstacle would be no movement at all. Least movement would be that if causing movement is avoidable, you avoid doing it. If the tree bends under your weight, you shouldn't be putting a foot on it.

Incidental movement caused by your throwing motion would be if your arm grazed branches as it swung and caused them to move. Stepping on or leaning on a tree causes movement that isn't really incidental.

 

[krupicka]

I think his point is if the tree doesn't move when he takes his stance, but only moves as a result of his throwing motion it's ok. This rests on the idea that a throwing motion would include any body movement as part of the act of throwing. eg. rear foot kicking up on a putt kicking whatever happens to be behind, hips rotating and moving branches that may be pushing against the player, head crashing into the overhead branch as one pushes up (I hate when I do the last one. Ouch) I'm not sure how you can limit throwing motion to just one arm of the body. Most use their entire body to throw.

 

[JC17393]

I didn't mean to imply incidental contact could only be with one's arm in motion. Other contact from other body parts like you describe would be acceptable too.

I really only disagree with the idea that one could put their foot on a tree for "support" and then call any movement of the tree caused by the foot to be incidental. I just don't see the tree moving because of the throwing motion but not moving prior to that just from the act of it providing support to the player.

 

[krupicka]

I guess was visualizing it as the tree being stable enough to rest a foot on it but in the act of pushing off as part of the throw it moved. To me that seems ok. Sort of like wood chips getting kicked back on a strong push from a back foot.