RHBH 300 Ft Max

[Brychanus]

I'll try these things.
My foot still seems turned back really far, so I'll also try a few tricks to get it parallel. That might be one of those things I need to overcorrect until my brain stops goofing it up.

Sounds good, give it a whack/post it.

IMHO the hardest part about optimizing the move off the drive leg is that it really requires excellent balance and movement, and also stability in the supporting muscles in that rear leg that I definitely did not get from my Olympic training lifts. I've had to start dipping into a whole different area of fitness to pull that off, and I can still barely do it. It's much easier to learn in standstills first for all of those reasons. You appear younger and fitter than me so if you're patient with that you have a chance.

 

[DWhitt]

IMHO the hardest part about optimizing the move off the drive leg is that it really requires excellent balance and movement, and also stability in the supporting muscles in that rear leg that I definitely did not get from my Olympic training lifts. I've had to start dipping into a whole different area of fitness to pull that off, and I can still barely do it. It's much easier to learn in standstills first for all of those reasons. You appear younger and fitter than me so if you're patient with that you have a chance.

I think I can manage the balance/strength, but my left hip seems to have a lot less flexibility than my right. I don't know if it inhibits movement, but I'm doing some stretching on the side anyway.
It feels like my body is starting to move for speed rather than strength in some ways now. That should be helpful.

 

[Brychanus]

@DWhitt

Actually that just reminded me: can you try this swing move for us? I keep finding that even young/otherwise fit people have significant difficulty getting all the way forward and back into the move he's showing here. If you do, it means you probably have flexibility issues somewhere in the rear hip complex and/or side bend direction, and you'll just be fighting your body unless you fix it! You should feel all the way coiled up moving back. Notice how his head ends up pointing all the way back from the target with his face in his elbowpit and head over his rear foot. Sidewinder has excellent flexibility here and it took me a while to develop it.

This drill is literally the same range of motion you need to be able to have easily to pull off a good backswing - not a metaphor!

Use a golf club or whatever so you can feel the leverage in the swing @ 1:16:

 

[DWhitt]

I tried turning the back foot toes more targetward initially and stepping out forward (see videos below). The results were underwhelming.
I'm still eventually leaving the rear foot behind which is turning the knee backwards as it was before. The forward step made me feel like I needed to use more lower back to power the throw, but ultimately seemed to change very little.
I did the swing drill as well.




The off arm elbow is worse than before because my body was floundering to generate power.

 

[DWhitt]

A problem area:

 

[Brychanus]

I'm going to suggest a change in strategies a little bit and try to get you out of the weeds. Guess what - I had these problems too!

Everything wrong in your throws is also in the swing drill/stretch (this is why they are helpful when you do them right - you are fixing how you move, not doing drills). Can't tell if you have a flexibility issue yet until we get you moving in this direction in the first place. You're still not getting in balance and you're already tipping off the rear leg while you're swinging back.



1. You rear leg is just sitting there like a stiff post. It needs to function like "walking it back." Do that Elephant drill walking forward like he is and throw.

2. I think even when you do it, you're still going to have trouble with the kinetics and ground forces. I can tell your body has no idea what they feel like. You are going to need to swing something much heavier than a golf club to get your body to move better and it's going to take you a while before you can do it with a lighter disc. So:

a. Use a 5lb weight in the swing drill above. If you tip like you do with the golf club, you're probably going to get out of control immediately. You need to heave it (carefully/slow at first) back around like SW and let it swing you into follow through in that direction. If you can't control it slow, you can't control it faster.

b. You, my overmuscling weightlifter friend, probably need to get a sledgehammer or heavy bar and do this. No, not metaphorically. If your arm doesn't feel like swinging a sledgehammer like this, and if your body can't do it like this older guy as effortlessly as this, you're going to be chasing ghosts for a while. By the way, great rhythm training and workout for exactly the chain you need to throw far/more effortlessly:





DETAILS if needed:

1. you might not be letting your rear hip coil internally and you're still blocking the action. This is something pitchers do without thinking about it. You'll probably need to attack it head on. Maybe this drill focusing on the rear hip around 6:58:


2. I don't think you have side bend at all because you're also not stable in the rear leg. You're swinging your entire torso back together. Instead, you need to allow mobility through the upper back. Try this in athletic stance. Difference in your movement is you're getting absolutely nothing out of your legs, so your upper has nothing to anchor your backswing.

Notice this is exactly the same thing as the sledge above.

 

[DWhitt]

I was reading this other thread (Pushing/balancing off back leg) when you replied, so pitcher movement and drills were already on my mind.

"If you're a guy that gets stuck in a hip hike"
I am literally riding this position into my, "pitch", throw. Going to try a few drills from this channel as well. Pitching motions make sense to my brain but are unusual for my body.

This sock one seems like it may be helpful.

 

[DWhitt]

It's starting to seem like you take the horizontal from baseball and the vertical from golf and marry them together with the diagonal swing plane. Honestly, I feel like my baseball elements progress is far behind the golf elements. Probably because I used to golf but never used to base a ball.

Pretty sure I've been kicking out correct golf elements to try to brute force cover up my other issues.

 

[Brychanus]

It's starting to seem like you take the horizontal from baseball and the vertical from golf and marry them together with the diagonal swing plane. Honestly, I feel like my baseball elements progress is far behind the golf elements. Probably because I used to golf but never used to base a ball.

Pretty sure I've been kicking out correct golf elements to try to brute force cover up my other issues.

Yes, depending on what you have in mind, that's exactly what he's showing you here:


Hershyzer is a pitching drill that SW22 adapted for the backhand:






I will continue to suggest that the ground forces needed for a DG power stroke and posture are going to need you to do some work with heavier weights/resistance moving in rhythm to make your legs and balance play along. Your legs appear that they really don't like to move like that/help you get coiled back and shift forward. But if you want to start with Hershyzer/pitching drills and clean them up for BH, that's IMO rarely a bad idea.


Edit:
1. Might be worth posting your golf swing to see if it's a good kinetic basis/"shortcut" for you or not. It's not like every golfer has pro-level chains either. My golf swing got better from learning here too

2. You might like listening to this podcast sometime to understand why I'm steering you this way.

On the Mark: Shawn Clement on Ground Reaction Force in the Golf Swing

Shawn Clement joins Mark Immelman to discuss Ground Reaction Forces and how you can use the ground to develop power and consistency.

markimmelman.com

 

[DWhitt]

I've decided to try to move my form towards Chris Dickerson's. He has a similar build (-15 lbs or so) and can throw more than 100' farther than I. This comparison should eliminate physicality excuses for me.




I have been throwing a ton and trying to improve my flexibility since our last posts, and I'm aware that my form is not better.
This is a very frustrating truth, as I really wanted to be able to brute force more distance by beating my body into submission with time and extreme effort. It just isn't happening, but I am glad to have fully tested it.

Now, I know I still need to fix my early backswing. I noticed that Chris's footwork is more similar to mine than expected, but he stretches out much further with the plant leg which seems to reduce potential tilting into the plant like I do. The stretch also gives more time for a backswing, which I always feel is super-rushed if I delay the start.
Getting his mass further away from the back leg also seems to be naturally banking it inwards at a more correct time than mine.
I know I am upright still, but I am currently losing all power and throwing out low when I do bend correctly. It is a fix for something else I'm doing.
Also, I keep alternating between leaning back a bit too far or going slightly over the top.

I feel that I need to fix something that offers measurable results; a small win would go a long way at this point.

 

[Brychanus]

I've decided to try to move my form towards Chris Dickerson's. He has a similar build (-15 lbs or so) and can throw more than 100' farther than I. This comparison should eliminate physicality excuses for me.




I have been throwing a ton and trying to improve my flexibility since our last posts, and I'm aware that my form is not better.
This is a very frustrating truth, as I really wanted to be able to brute force more distance by beating my body into submission with time and extreme effort. It just isn't happening, but I am glad to have fully tested it.

Now, I know I still need to fix my early backswing. I noticed that Chris's footwork is more similar to mine than expected, but he stretches out much further with the plant leg which seems to reduce potential tilting into the plant like I do. The stretch also gives more time for a backswing, which I always feel is super-rushed if I delay the start.
Getting his mass further away from the back leg also seems to be naturally banking it inwards at a more correct time than mine.
I know I am upright still, but I am currently losing all power and throwing out low when I do bend correctly. It is a fix for something else I'm doing.
Also, I keep alternating between leaning back a bit too far or going slightly over the top.

I feel that I need to fix something that offers measurable results; a small win would go a long way at this point.

CD looks like a decent fit to me.

I think you're still always trapped between your feet and moving your body trying to rotate around a center axis unlike walking. You're missing the part of the balance that is exaggerated in seabas22 Turbo Encabulator series.

I'm somewhat farther along than you but still trying to get fully out of weightlifter balance hell, so very interested in what SW22 would tell you if he thinks otherwise here.

 

[sidewinder22]

Door Frame/Bow and Arrow Drills.

 

[DWhitt]

I have been doing these 2 drills for several sessions a day, and it seems to be making a difference.
I think I can fix a lot of my backswing timing and head placement issues by pre-loading a bit like CD. I've noticed many of the pros do this. To me it feels like extending my scapula from the beginning of the run-up.
When I try it in my shadow swings, it feels much more efficient and less spinny. I can move targetward during the plant instead of putting a lot of effort into turning around.

I am beginning to process the feel of pushing away from the frame with my left foot in a way that I couldn't comprehend without resistance. It isn't natural to pair it with the drop into plant foot yet. Anyway, the "real-feel temperature" is averaging like 110 this week, so indoor drills are perfect for me right now.

 

[Brychanus]

Keep working the LtB drill. Don't get distracted. Focus on building up that coil against the rear foot. You should be able to walk/drop/"push off the dock" directly into the plant.

I agree that your shoulder stuff may need work but just want to make sure we're saying the same words.

For instance, if you full pump or use a more conservative one, I think throwing shoulder scapula is retracting into the pump (or throw) and protracting into the backswing. Vice versa for rear shoulder, like walking (just much more subtle there of course). I think you may have meant "protracting my throwing scapula from the beginning of the runup."



On that point, even without a pronounced pump, the posture and dynamics CD is using involving the shoulders is pretty much exactly like Sidewinder's Battering Ram drill, just keeping the ram more loaded back as he runs up. I don't think time with that drill is ever wasted from a rhythm, timing, foot leverage, and posture perspective.

But you need to Load the Bow to get closer to CD. IMO (and I'm one to talk) try to fix your overall balance and shift there and see if the head plays along. Then head might need additional intervention after that. Can only whack so many moles at once ;-)

 

[DWhitt]

Yes, protraction of the scapula!
I'm just trying to drill this for overall improvement and feel at this point. The observations I'm making are merely thoughts not targets.
What does "push off the dock" mean?

 

[Brychanus]

Yes, protraction of the scapula!
I'm just trying to drill this for overall improvement and feel at this point. The observations I'm making are merely thoughts not targets.
What does "push off the dock" mean?

Yeah dude, keep it up. Load the Bow just gave my big dumb weightlifter body a breakthrough this week.

Push of the dock: if your balance is better/correct moving off the rear foot with your center of mass ahead of the foot (like walking), your rear foot should "roll" as you move forward into the plant. If you've ever gotten in a rowboat and "pushed off the dock" sideways with your foot, it does what the rear foot here is doing. His balance here is directly related to how easily he gets off the rear foot "pushing off the dock." It's basically what I and any other heavy weightlifter I've seen so far have a hard time fixing. You can work on it in Load the Bow.



Basically just try to get your rear foot to "roll" as part of the move of the rear leg (like walking sideways) into the plant. Then it looks more like these:

Watch Brinster's foot forward and back:

Big papa pendulum's is super clear:

McBeth's:

This is one of the things that people misunderstand really easily and really struggle to learn, and you'll hear every strong opinion under the sun. Take it from a reforming meathead and my coach: just walk it out, baby.

 

[DWhitt]

I woke up with some muscle soreness in my back (not sure about you, but I love it as a long-time lifter) just from getting maximum leverage and stretch in these 2 drills.
If nothing else, it's an indication that I'm using my body differently. I might try to get some throws in this afternoon.

 

[Brychanus]

I woke up with some muscle soreness in my back (not sure about you, but I love it as a long-time lifter) just from getting maximum leverage and stretch in these 2 drills.
If nothing else, it's an indication that I'm using my body differently. I might try to get some throws in this afternoon.

Where in the back?

 

[DWhitt]

Where in the back?

Most of it seems to be in the deep muscle between the shoulders and spine. Some in the obliques (oblique slings is mentioned as a target, so this seems positive).

 

[Brychanus]

Ok, I'm not a physician so I won't diagnose specifics, just recommend take it easy and get a drill posture check.

I definitely had phases of some soreness in oblique slings/potentially fascial tissue given that I had never used them to throw or drill before. Range of motion needed to improve over weeks. Usually always gets better as I move better/posture better.