Selah Ranch

[papamullins]

Keep in mind he's probably still in a whirlwind from this past weekend. I bet the guy is exhausted. Dave is a humble country guy. He's probably not the best versed in PR. I don't want to make excuses, but if you're going to analyze that hard, let's at least consider both sides of the situation.

 

[NDABRUSH]

I do resent anyone that treats their customers like addicted heroin addicts or crack heads or like they are the only game in town, but people that expect everything to be for free are living in a false reality and would probably change their tune if they had to do any of the upkeep themselves. Instead, they just reap the rewards of others work and then bitch about having to pay for it.

 

[bizzyd]

If anyone sees my discs in the lost and found @ the pro shop I would gladly pay shipping costs to ship back to me. Lost 5 discs this weekend there. Three of them really hurt to lose. They would just have my PDGA # written on the rim of the disc (46956). Thanks!

 

[grodney]

 

[grodney]

#5 Creekside:

#8 Creekside:

#15 Creekside, sorry you can't see the basket:

 

[jsc430]

That CS #5 is a tricky little bastard. Not nearly as easy as it looks.

Keep em coming :thmbup:

 

[grodney]

Lake #2. You can either stay between the water and the grove of trees, which is an easier approach, or go left of the grove. In the grove you have a chance of jail but can probably make something happen.

Approach on #15 Lake. Over the little hill and then a drop down to the creek level beyond.

 

[grodney]

Lake #7 at sunset:

Same night, from the bridge at #7:

 

[grodney]

That CS #5 is a tricky little bastard. Not nearly as easy as it looks.

Keep em coming :thmbup:

I don't remember my brother's shot there, but his Star X-Cal flip shot looks destined to be about 100 feet right of the hole!

 

[johnrhouck]

I'm on the road and on my phone. Just pulled over for a quick stop and saw there was activity on this thread. I can't read it all right now, but I would like to say two quick things before some of this gets any farther out of hand:

1. Anyone who thinks Dave Hickerson is arrogant hasn't met him.
2. If whoever posted Dave's private email on a public forum did so without Dave's permission, that someone owes Dave ( and everyone else here) an apology. That's just not right.

Thanks,
John

 

[grodney]

Fire pit and a grill full of rib-eyes, anyone? (I should probably use the omg tag instead of img.)

Kickin it between rounds at the Corral House:

 

[grodney]

The layout at the Corral House:

 

[pmatt1969]

Ambrose comes off like a cheapskate. That is why he got the reaction from Dave that he did. It is almost offensive to try to hit the guy up for a discount. Sounds like he would not even donate a decent amount to play somewhere unless they had a mandatory amount. Sounds to me like there is more to this story that we are getting from Ambrose. Do not know dave but I will be going to Selah sometime and will be happy to pay the full amount for the experience. Do not expect Dave to pay for my gas to get there.

 

[Puckstopper]

Thanks....this post makes much more sense and is very well written and thought out. I'm a big hockey fan, BTW and love your handle and avatar.

One question: Since you were so quick to jump on the email calling it "absurdly arrogant", why did you not dole out similar judgment on a person publicly posting a private email message? In your mind what is a comparable summation for that (in cellphone keypad language)?

First off, thanks! Second, and concisely I think he was well within his rights. Any business that treats me the way Selah treated him had better believe I will be telling the story to everyone who will listen. Third, what private email message? Once you press send, that thing is stored on multiple computers across the internet, including yours and the recipient's. There's really no expectation of privacy in any written communication. Setting that aside, I think Ambroze has done everyone here a service, including Dave. Either Dave had an "off day", as someone else has suggested. In that case if Dave catches wind of this he can either learn, or more likely be reminded, that as a business owner you aren't allowed to have "off days" without it affecting your business adversely. The other possibility is that Dave truly believes he can treat his customers with derision and contempt and still have a successful business. If that's the case, the sooner we know about it the better. Sorry I didn't keep it concise after all.

I do resent anyone that treats their customers like addicted heroin addicts or crack heads or like they are the only game in town, but people that expect everything to be for free are living in a false reality and would probably change their tune if they had to do any of the upkeep themselves. Instead, they just reap the rewards of others work and then bitch about having to pay for it.

I didn't get the impression that Ambroze was asking anything for free. I got the impression that he wrote an email explaining that he wouldn't be able to take full advantage of the facilities Selah offered, and asked if he could get a discount based on that fact. A simple, polite no would have been acceptable, but instead Dave fired off an email that is not worthy of a world class facility.

Keep in mind he's probably still in a whirlwind from this past weekend. I bet the guy is exhausted. Dave is a humble country guy. He's probably not the best versed in PR. I don't want to make excuses, but if you're going to analyze that hard, let's at least consider both sides of the situation.

I realize that between my occasionally caustic demeanor, and sophomoric sense of humor I may not come across as the smartest guy on this board, but I assure you that I put no more analysis into that response than any other I post here. This just happens to be an area of expertise for me. To the topic at hand, most of the humble country folk I know are much more mannerly than Dave presented himself in that email. Plus, I think you're selling the guy short. Banks don't give the money for a facility like Selah to idiots. You have to have a well thought out business plan with a significant chance of success to get a business loan. If you have the brains to put together a solid business plan you should be able to handle customer service, or be smart enough to have someone else do it for you. Either way, as the owner you are responsible.

 

[jsc430]

First off, thanks! Second, and concisely I think he was well within his rights. Any business that treats me the way Selah treated him had better believe I will be telling the story to everyone who will listen. Third, what private email message? Once you press send, that thing is stored on multiple computers across the internet, including yours and the recipient's. There's really no expectation of privacy in any written communication. Setting that aside, I think Ambroze has done everyone here a service, including Dave. Either Dave had an "off day", as someone else has suggested. In that case if Dave catches wind of this he can either learn, or more likely be reminded, that as a business owner you aren't allowed to have "off days" without it affecting your business adversely. The other possibility is that Dave truly believes he can treat his customers with derision and contempt and still have a successful business. If that's the case, the sooner we know about it the better. Sorry I didn't keep it concise after all.

Well once you put a confidentiality stamp on an email it its pretty well protected. I know you weren't trying to be absolute and I somewhat agree that there's less privacy in a personal email. Its more bad manners if anything IMO.

I didn't get the impression that Ambroze was asking anything for free. I got the impression that he wrote an email explaining that he wouldn't be able to take full advantage of the facilities Selah offered, and asked if he could get a discount based on that fact. A simple, polite no would have been acceptable, but instead Dave fired off an email that is not worthy of a world class facility.

Seriously, how is this not asking for SOMEthing for FREE? Considering that they do not and never have offered green fees/cart for only 18 holes?

 

[Dave242]

First off, thanks! Second, and concisely I think he was well within his rights. Any business that treats me the way Selah treated him had better believe I will be telling the story to everyone who will listen. Third, what private email message? Once you press send, that thing is stored on multiple computers across the internet, including yours and the recipient's. There's really no expectation of privacy in any written communication.

Seeing how this has unfolded, I now regret not posting something as direct as this when I first posted my veiled challenge to this when this topic came up.
--------------
You can argue that an email from a company is not private communication even though it was not a message vetted for consumption by the public. If something is sent in a way that intended to be consumed privately, it is in very poor form to post it publicly.

It floors me that you are quick to call that email "absurdly arrogant" and then back pedal and give yourself latitude while not affording the same latitude to the author of the email....and that you are willing and eager to promote very poor netiquette.
---------------
Forum Guidelines state:
6) Related to #5, do NOT publicly call out members if you have a disagreement. Handle it over PM, leave them negative feedback, etc. but posting an "Mr. X is a dirtbag" thread will result in an infraction/ban and a deleted thread.

You can argue that the author of the email is not a DGCR member so this rule does not apply technically.....but these posts against a member of the DG community break the spirit of this rule.
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One thing that you can NOT successfully argue is that posting the email message and defending the right to do so breaks the "Golden Rule".....to treat others as you wish to be treated.

What are you trying to accomplish? The main thing you are doing is putting a very sour taste into the mouth of the people who have just brought the disc golf world a top destination.

As a member of the DG family at large (with no dog in the fight other than that), I ask you to please be a bigger man than that.

 

[Puckstopper]

I'm on the road and on my phone. Just pulled over for a quick stop and saw there was activity on this thread. I can't read it all right now, but I would like to say two quick things before some of this gets any farther out of hand:

1. Anyone who thinks Dave Hickerson is arrogant hasn't met him.
2. If whoever posted Dave's private email on a public forum did so without Dave's permission, that someone owes Dave ( and everyone else here) an apology. That's just not right.

Thanks,
John

John, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you on both points. First, the email speaks for itself. Dave may not normally be arrogant, but he certainly came across that way. Secondly, as a business owner, you really have no expectation of privacy in any written communication to a customer or potential customer. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. Don't commit anything to writing that you don't want to see again. That's been a rule long before email. After all, if Ambroze had come on here and told his story without posting the email he would have been castigated (and rightly so) for trashing Selah without proof.

Ambrose comes off like a cheapskate. That is why he got the reaction from Dave that he did. It is almost offensive to try to hit the guy up for a discount. Sounds like he would not even donate a decent amount to play somewhere unless they had a mandatory amount. Sounds to me like there is more to this story that we are getting from Ambrose. Do not know dave but I will be going to Selah sometime and will be happy to pay the full amount for the experience. Do not expect Dave to pay for my gas to get there.

I'm not sure why you have a problem with someone asking for a discount. It's done all the time, and it never hurts to ask. If greens fees are $20 for unlimited golf why shouldn't Dave offer a discount to an out of state guest who only has time for a single round? Doing so would have made him look kind and generous. However, you are correct that Dave is under no obligation at all to accommodate someone's request. However, as a business owner he really needs to consider his responses more carefully.

I was excited to play Selah in October, as I'll have to opportunity to play the 4 top rated courses on this board this year (I live less than 3 hours from Idlewild, my family has a cottage 90 minutes from Flip City, and I'll be in Plano in October). I am now reconsidering playing Selah at all.

I want to make it abundantly clear that I have no involvement with either party involved here. I'm only jumping in because I'm dismayed to see such poor customer service from one of the most highly regarded courses in our sport. I work for a company that has won 17 JD Power Awards for customer service, and after being immersed in that culture for several years I find Dave's email absolutely repugnant. Hopefully this was a one time stumble on Dave's part as so many here have suggested. If so it will fade into the woodwork fairly quickly and be forgotten.

Well once you put a confidentiality stamp on an email it its pretty well protected. I know you weren't trying to be absolute and I somewhat agree that there's less privacy in a personal email. Its more bad manners if anything IMO.



Seriously, how is this not asking for SOMEthing for FREE? Considering that they do not and never have offered green fees/cart for only 18 holes?

What confidentiality stamp? And even if there was one it's not legally enforceable unless both parties agree.

You are aware that there is a difference between free and discount right? Dave could have offered $5 off, and had a happy customer. I'm fairly sure he'd pay that $5 to make this go away right now.

 

[pmatt1969]

I would say from the pictures Grodney has posted that everyone seems to have a great time and the facilities are wonderful. I don't think Dave is the one who comes off looking bad. And I am being kind

 

[pmatt1969]

And discounts are not asked for all the time. When I pick up drycleaning I don't ask for a discount. Then I go buy gas, I do not ask for a discount. Go to a fast food joint, I do not ask for a discount. Go buy a pair of shoes, do not ask for one there either. If someone askes for a discount everywhere they go, they are a cheapskate and a tool in my opinion. If you have a coupon that is one thing, but just asking out of the blue, is bad manners and very rude. As a matter of fact on all paid vacations I have been on, it is common to tip the employees.

 

[Puckstopper]

---------------
Forum Guidelines state:
6) Related to #5, do NOT publicly call out members if you have a disagreement. Handle it over PM, leave them negative feedback, etc. but posting an "Mr. X is a dirtbag" thread will result in an infraction/ban and a deleted thread.

You can argue that the author of the email is not a DGCR member so this rule does not apply technically.....but these posts against a member of the DG community break the spirit of this rule.
---------------
One thing that you can NOT successfully argue is that posting the email message and defending the right to do so breaks the "Golden Rule".....to treat others as you wish to be treated.

What are you trying to accomplish? The main thing you are doing is putting a very sour taste into the mouth of the people who have just brought the disc golf world a top destination.

As a member of the DG family at large (with no dog in the fight other than that), I ask you to please be a bigger man than that.

The Golden Rule goes both ways right?

I'm not attempting to accomplish anything. I am engaging in a discussion on a discussion board. Most here are jumping on Ambroze for posting a poor customer service experience, whereas I feel that when these types of experiences are brought to the attention of consumers, we're all better off. We are better off because we know that Dave is unwilling to bend his prices, so we can avoid wasting our time asking. Dave is better off even though this particular experience paints him in a poor light, because he can learn from it and phrase his responses better in the future.


I have no desire to pillory Dave. There are plenty of people here standing up for him, and calling him a good guy. I don't know him personally, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt based on his passionate defenders. I simply hope he'll do better in the future. Oh, and I don't see this as breaking rule 5 as this was not a personal attack on Dave, but rather reporting a poor experience with Selah Ranch that may have relevance for others in the community here.