Starting from scratch.
- Thread starter Kennets
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2008
- Messages
- 21,923
I almost forgot to put that part in there. It's a very common mistake, people forget how to walk when throwing.
Think about running perpendicular to the target. You are going to lean/fall more toward the direction you want to move the faster you want to move.
Minor update!
I had a few months with unbearable pain and decided to only play a round or two each month, to keep the pain at bay.
I've spend a lot of time with "theory" and basically just trying to grasp the concept of the BH throw. But it's hard to put to the test, because I'm afraid I might overdo it and end up as I did earlier this year.
I do play a tad more lately, but the highest speed disc I throw is a teebird and I mainly focus on posture during the rounds and try to throw with as low effort as possible.
My throwing arm needs a lot of work still - I can't get the right swing out of it at the moment. I spin out, hugging myself/rounding/collapse
I occasionally record myself, but I can see that I struggle with the same issues as always, so no need to update the thread here..
I had a few months with unbearable pain and decided to only play a round or two each month, to keep the pain at bay.
I've spend a lot of time with "theory" and basically just trying to grasp the concept of the BH throw. But it's hard to put to the test, because I'm afraid I might overdo it and end up as I did earlier this year.
I do play a tad more lately, but the highest speed disc I throw is a teebird and I mainly focus on posture during the rounds and try to throw with as low effort as possible.
My throwing arm needs a lot of work still - I can't get the right swing out of it at the moment. I spin out, hugging myself/rounding/collapse
I occasionally record myself, but I can see that I struggle with the same issues as always, so no need to update the thread here..
Minor update (again):
"I'm so frustrated, to the point where I really just think about giving up on any form improvement and just play my casual round every now and then."
I'm not sure if you guys have had this thought running through your mind? Im facing huge adversity in my private life and I'm not sure if that correlates to my "form work" or lack thereof.
I HAD settled on leaving the field work out of my game for now, but then I found myself pinched behind a tree and had to do a "elefant walk/whip step" throw during a round.
Aaaand the disc just came out like a rocket. Went straight for my phone and tried to do it again.. no bueno..
I hate this game, with a passion.
Just kidding.. maybe..
"I'm so frustrated, to the point where I really just think about giving up on any form improvement and just play my casual round every now and then."
I'm not sure if you guys have had this thought running through your mind? Im facing huge adversity in my private life and I'm not sure if that correlates to my "form work" or lack thereof.
I HAD settled on leaving the field work out of my game for now, but then I found myself pinched behind a tree and had to do a "elefant walk/whip step" throw during a round.
Aaaand the disc just came out like a rocket. Went straight for my phone and tried to do it again.. no bueno..
I hate this game, with a passion.
Just kidding.. maybe..
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
Hope things get better personally.
Sounds like maybe you should be playing with more elephant and whip step and just "let it fly" for a little my friend. Be free. Frisbees and throwing them should be joyous things.
Thanks buddy, I appreciate the kind words!
To be fair, my casual rounds with friends has been some of the best in a while. Not only scoring wise, but I've enjoyed them SO much. Made me forget about the things I struggle with.
I think my frustrations with form work comes down to:
1. I absolutely do not put any time into it. And I still think I'm 12 and my body somehow is gonna adapt itself.. being 36, it doesn't, at all. Muscle memory is a b... At this age.
2. When I somehow get things right (a brace, timing, not over rotating etc) I instantly thinks that I've found the right cue for me... And then I can't replicate it for 500 throws.
Question time: you know English isn't my first language, so bare with me.
Whip step drill: I really like this drill, since there's "more" to it, than I originally thought.
In the drill, Andrew kinda shows it like an "alternating lunge" and I wondered.. if I were to use that drill and stay "posted up on the front leg, how would I do that? If I push myself directly back (east?) like a lunge while carrying my CoM(?) north(?), I feel like I automatically have to tense my core to remain postured and I actually goes from APT to a more "neutral" position.
Does that make any sense?
Otherwise I have to record myself
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Brychanus
* Ace Member *
"Lounge" = "lunge"?Thanks buddy, I appreciate the kind words!
To be fair, my casual rounds with friends has been some of the best in a while. Not only scoring wise, but I've enjoyed them SO much. Made me forget about the things I struggle with.
I think my frustrations with form work comes down to:
1. I absolutely do not put any time into it. And I still think I'm 12 and my body somehow is gonna adapt itself.. being 36, it doesn't, at all. Muscle memory is a b... At this age.
2. When I somehow get things right (a brace, timing, not over rotating etc) I instantly thinks that I've found the right cue for me... And then I can't replicate it for 500 throws.
Question time: you know English isn't my first language, so bare with me.
Whip step drill: I really like this drill, since there's "more" to it, than I originally thought.
In the drill, Andrew kinda shows it like an "alternating lounge" and I wondered.. if I were to use that drill and stay "posted up on the front leg, how would I do that? If I push myself directly back (east?) like a lounge while carrying my CoM(?) north(?), I feel like I automatically have to tense my core to remain postured and I actually goes from APT to a more "neutral" position.
Does that make any sense?
Otherwise I have to record myself
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Thanks buddy, I appreciate the kind words!
To be fair, my casual rounds with friends has been some of the best in a while. Not only scoring wise, but I've enjoyed them SO much. Made me forget about the things I struggle with.
I think my frustrations with form work comes down to:
1. I absolutely do not put any time into it. And I still think I'm 12 and my body somehow is gonna adapt itself.. being 36, it doesn't, at all. Muscle memory is a b... At this age.
2. When I somehow get things right (a brace, timing, not over rotating etc) I instantly thinks that I've found the right cue for me... And then I can't replicate it for 500 throws.
Question time: you know English isn't my first language, so bare with me.
Whip step drill: I really like this drill, since there's "more" to it, than I originally thought.
In the drill, Andrew kinda shows it like an "alternating lounge" and I wondered.. if I were to use that drill and stay "posted up on the front leg, how would I do that? If I push myself directly back (east?) like a lounge while carrying my CoM(?) north(?), I feel like I automatically have to tense my core to remain postured and I actually goes from APT to a more "neutral" position.
Does that make any sense?
Otherwise I have to record myself
1. Time matters, but quality time and deliberate practice matter. 10 quality reps is much better than 100 poor quality reps, and reinforces precision. I was talking to another coach whose (very athletic and strong) student suddenly learned how to brace hard and went from 60 mph to 75mph basically overnight. He was throwing 400 shots per day. He partially fractured his pelvis and was out for two months. What if he threw 40 shots instead and kept making his form more efficient? Volume matters but if you can't do volume, you can still do precision and deliberate practice with the time/body limits you have.
2. Suggestion for those with time/body limits: pick one throwing style for a while then work from there.
Whip step drill (is great): If I follow what you are saying, yes, you can stride and push your body back East and let the disc counter out away from your body like the drill. Focus on posture of course to the extent you can. I think I first accessed the feel of the Whip Step with sledgehammer throws where the body countering part of the move is mega exaggerated. Make your arm very heavy swinging out as wide as possible from your body at first.
Also, I think this little move at (1:31) is super helpful for someone having trouble linking up the parts you're talking about. Maybe try that and then throw directly out of it:
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Would a hammer whip step be too aggressive of an approach, in regards to timing and "feel"?
Before injuries I had a "oh shit" moment on the course, after doing hammer drills all summer. It felt exactly like a whip step throw, just x25. Kinda like I had to counter my "heavy" hand by leaning east, while the hand/disc felt like a 10 pound hammer.. I still chase that feeling on the regular and I think that if I could recreate just a zip of that feeling, I would be satisfied lol.
Before injuries I had a "oh shit" moment on the course, after doing hammer drills all summer. It felt exactly like a whip step throw, just x25. Kinda like I had to counter my "heavy" hand by leaning east, while the hand/disc felt like a 10 pound hammer.. I still chase that feeling on the regular and I think that if I could recreate just a zip of that feeling, I would be satisfied lol.
Nick Carroll
Par Member
I think what wears on people isn't so much form work, net work, field work, course work, etc. I think it's more "I didn't get better" or "that didn't work" or some other way of determining failure occurred. I think if you're working on something, seeing success and improvement over time, you're more likely to enjoy it, and continue doing it. If you hit a wall, and no matter what you do, you can't get past it - that is what becomes tedious.
And I believe that if most of us looks back and reevaluate our game, 95% of us will see that we've improved to some degree. I know I have. I just tend to get frustrated when I can't incorporate a certain mechanic to the throw or I film myself and see I still struggle with the exact same issue I did 2 years ago (not to the same extend, but it's still there).
I've always been able to pick up any sport during my youth and be pretty darn good at it (soccer, basketball, handball, table tennis, etc), but father Time gets all of us lol.
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
I mean... look at my avatar lmao.
Recommend you do it outside & throw the hammer out of whip step. I don't think it was a coincidence that throwing sledges outside had a much bigger effect on my overall move than hammer work inside (I gained a lot inside too but talking about the overall "whip-n-throw" part of the whole body).
I don't know that I ever posted it but I did also throw sledges almost completely vertical and that helped too.
You are a wise man, Nick.
Kennets - I like throwing and hitting things with hammers. That's part of why it helped me. Not everyone likes it so much.
This is common in sports. Every time my skills have "leveled up" I've been impressed at how much more work it takes to get to a new plateau. Since I don't really have time to work on most of the skills right now I've just learned to enjoy what I've got more and nudge it around. I enjoy driving more than anything else so that's where I invest my time. I'm pretty accurate most of the time, but not precise. The time to get to pro-level precise probably takes a lot more work than most people have time or patience or interest to invest.
Also, I don't know about you but I've become more comfortable realizing some of my motion will probably be "compensatory" for either brain or body problems. I'll keep chipping away because it interests me, but I've decided that it's ok, too.
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GeezerGolfDFW
Newbie
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2023
- Messages
- 27
We all have a limited amount of bandwidth. Give yourself grace. The game is just fine played for fun. When things settle down then get serious about the game again if you want to. Some rounds are pure magic and some nothing goes right.
Putt for D'oh
Double Eagle Member
Same, same same. I was going back through some of the film I have of myself and couldn't actually find any good mechanics. I know I have developed them at time, but I don't actually film myself when I'm throwing well. I have the bad habit of only filming when things aren't working and im frustrated with my on course performance. So there is some bias to the bad when it comes to seeing the same old bad habits recurring on film. I don't ever see me NOT doing those things, but I know by performance that I AM doing things right at times.
I also think it is way more frustrating to have to work and not see immediate results when things ARE natural or especially if you are really good at some other sport with what appears to be a minimal amount of effort. Where the truth may be that it can be easier and more fun to "practice" when you are already good at something. Working through a problem can be rewarding but it can also feel like a chore. Reps matter but as Brychanus points out quality reps > than number of reps. There is a book out there, I audio booked it a few years ago, "The Talent Code" by Daniel Coyle. (wholly cow looking back for that there are some books there I think I need to re-read(listen)). It talks a lot about how "muscle memory" is developed. How we practice, HOW we do our reps matters more than the number we do. BUT also consistency and that is where I fall short especially on practicing putting. THATS where its easier to put in the reps when it is fun and its more fun when you are doing it well.
I played my worst round of tournament golf ever last weekend, by a long shot. I am really feeling a LOT of what you have been saying in the last couple days here. It is really hard to accept I am who I am. If i'm not practicing and I'm only playing 1 round every two weeks or so, instead of 1 to 2 rounds 3 to 5 days a week, maybe I should temper my expectations. Thats hard as well.
Thank you for the kind words fellas, I really appreciate it.
I've always had a temper regarding sports and gaming too. To the point where I've been a mood-killer for the people around me.
The last year or so, 90% of my rounds left me with a smile on my face. Not because of great rounds, but due to the thought of "my god I'm lucky that I get to spend time with great friends, laughing and being able to throw". Having severe chronic pain at times, I've learned to value the hours my body lets me play. I can still get mad if a round isn't going my way, but that's life and it usually doesn't bother me that much.
Regarding form work:
I need to find a way to approach this, in a right way. I can't spend 1 hours in the field throwing due to my chronic neck and back pain.
I've always had a temper regarding sports and gaming too. To the point where I've been a mood-killer for the people around me.
The last year or so, 90% of my rounds left me with a smile on my face. Not because of great rounds, but due to the thought of "my god I'm lucky that I get to spend time with great friends, laughing and being able to throw". Having severe chronic pain at times, I've learned to value the hours my body lets me play. I can still get mad if a round isn't going my way, but that's life and it usually doesn't bother me that much.
Regarding form work:
I need to find a way to approach this, in a right way. I can't spend 1 hours in the field throwing due to my chronic neck and back pain.
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
I like the "wisdom in golf and life vibe" @GeezerGolfDFW @Putt for D'oh
As "serious" as I am around here, I've mentioned that in real life I'm more of a joking goofball when I play. I bring beer sometimes at 7:30am and will have a cigarette once in a while and just yuck it up. I will encourage people to make fun of me for my bad shots. But I have some temper poke through once in a while too. Had to build up the mental tools to relax.
I have a friend who had a full-on meltdown because he couldn't get his shots or putts under control and was trending way over par. He spontaneously deleted the card without telling us while the other player and I were having quite strong rounds and quietly competing with each other. He wasn't even really aware of how upset he was coming across. We took it fine because we know him and both of us really just wished he was having more fun.
Focus on the friends, laughing, and being able to throw at all.
Fieldwork advice for the limited/those in pain who want to have fun more than go on pro tour: Choose the thing that is working the best with the least pain. Quality matters more than quantity. Otherwise, mitigate movements that risk more pain. Build on the movements that are working best first with the least/no pain. You might not ever be able to do some things and that's ok.
Form advice for the limited: Golf and safety-wise, most people I've seen throw out there would be way better off just learning to throw a repeatable standstill than try to get a "pro-like" x-step anyway. I see guys that crossover from baseball who move like true athletes and they have a 90 degree spray arc at 300' even if their range is 450' with their X-step. I am a glutton for punishment and am happy where I'm ending up now, but there were real costs. I also throw standstills every time I can when the ~20% bump from my X-step isn't objectively helpful. Just some things I'm learning along the way.
As "serious" as I am around here, I've mentioned that in real life I'm more of a joking goofball when I play. I bring beer sometimes at 7:30am and will have a cigarette once in a while and just yuck it up. I will encourage people to make fun of me for my bad shots. But I have some temper poke through once in a while too. Had to build up the mental tools to relax.
I have a friend who had a full-on meltdown because he couldn't get his shots or putts under control and was trending way over par. He spontaneously deleted the card without telling us while the other player and I were having quite strong rounds and quietly competing with each other. He wasn't even really aware of how upset he was coming across. We took it fine because we know him and both of us really just wished he was having more fun.
I can tell you that as smooth and natural as my move is now starting to work, at 80%+ it is definitely an athletic feat that I still occasionally underestimate. If I throw too much at 80%+ I get sore, and if I throw too much more than that I am sore for 2 days. Being able to move for my wife and daughters the rest of my life is more important to me now than what I know it would take to get another repeatable 50-100' at my age with my issues (if that's even possible for me). Really.
Focus on the friends, laughing, and being able to throw at all.
Fieldwork advice for the limited/those in pain who want to have fun more than go on pro tour: Choose the thing that is working the best with the least pain. Quality matters more than quantity. Otherwise, mitigate movements that risk more pain. Build on the movements that are working best first with the least/no pain. You might not ever be able to do some things and that's ok.
Form advice for the limited: Golf and safety-wise, most people I've seen throw out there would be way better off just learning to throw a repeatable standstill than try to get a "pro-like" x-step anyway. I see guys that crossover from baseball who move like true athletes and they have a 90 degree spray arc at 300' even if their range is 450' with their X-step. I am a glutton for punishment and am happy where I'm ending up now, but there were real costs. I also throw standstills every time I can when the ~20% bump from my X-step isn't objectively helpful. Just some things I'm learning along the way.
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