The best post you will ever read on DGR

[zj1002]

You guys keep mentioning basic techniques and advanced techniques. Can someone provide some examples of what they would be?

That is just way too advanced to disclose here :wall:

All kidding aside, I can provide my personal experience in teaching. In the last couple years I got to the point BlakeT seemed to reach here. I became frustrated with a lot of this stuff where we tell people their technique is wrong because things are off by 3 degrees one way, or the shoulders aren't turned all the way one direction on the reach-back. I couldn't teach students any of that because it wasn't applicable. They couldn't grasp the concept and apply it because nothing about their previous throw was athletic.

I decided to go back to the basics of most sports, keeping my initial lessons targeted on moving things forward toward the target. The rest of those angles and mechanics vary from throw to throw anyways and this is why I think critiquing videos of open field bombs is semi-useless, they generally aren't real lines.

So the first 2 things I try to teach all my students - keep your weight balanced, and bend your knees. Its really the 2 most important things as these impact your ability to open the hips, elbow, shoulder, etc all toward the target. It is vital to gaining both accuracy and distance. If you are flat footed on any throw/putt, you can't shift your weight forward, it stalls out/up. Bending your knees helps facility this and gets your big muscles going. Most people don't grow up learning this or are old enough that they haven't done it since high school 10+ years ago. Once somebody begins to understand that, then you can explain how it can help open the hips, elbow, etc.

Unfortunately I can't quickly provide a list of basic vs advanced techniques aside from I said about weight shift. It would take some time to analyze what goes where in the rankings of technique. There are lists over on DGR that break it down, so maybe someone can dig it up.

 

[roflsocks]

I've had to tell multiple people is they just don't have the athleticism and coordination to get any better.

This is about the worst advice you could ever give someone, even if it's true. If you convince someone that it's not worth trying to get better, then they'll be much more likely to stop trying to get better. Then when they don't get better, it looks like you were right because they still suck.

What you should do, especially for an uncoordinated person who wants to get better, is encourage them to work, at their own pace, one bit at a time. I don't care how uncoordinated you are, or what level you're at, there is ALWAYS room to improve if you put in the work. An uncoordinated person may have to work harder, longer, and have less to show for it, but they can still make progress if they want it.

To be a bit more on topic, I think it's worth emphasizing to work smart. That means things like fine tuning advanced topics aren't really the right things to work on, if you're throwing 250 feet. In much the same way that fine tuning your scope isn't much good, if it's mounted poorly and keeps coming loose.

 

[sidewinder22]

This is venturing into the realm of can you teach/learn balance or rhythm?

 

[tampabay]

This is about the worst advice you could ever give someone, even if it's true. If you convince someone that it's not worth trying to get better, then they'll be much more likely to stop trying to get better. Then when they don't get better, it looks like you were right because they still suck.

What you should do, especially for an uncoordinated person who wants to get better, is encourage them to work, at their own pace, one bit at a time. I don't care how uncoordinated you are, or what level you're at, there is ALWAYS room to improve if you put in the work. An uncoordinated person may have to work harder, longer, and have less to show for it, but they can still make progress if they want it.

To be a bit more on topic, I think it's worth emphasizing to work smart. That means things like fine tuning advanced topics aren't really the right things to work on, if you're throwing 250 feet. In much the same way that fine tuning your scope isn't much good, if it's mounted poorly and keeps coming loose.

I think you missed his gist, but I think you are making a necessary clarification.

I don't think he's saying less athletic players shouldn't try harder. But I think he's more saying something along the lines of not everyone should spend their time training to dunk a basketball. It's just not in the stars for some people. Working on their vertical? Great. Focusing on dunking technique? Probably not helpful.

The examples mentioned in the original post were things like focusing on heel pivot...there are some people that would be much better suited focusing on practicing putting rather than focusing on something as mechanically difficult as that, additionally he also makes the point that if your technique is solid then it will probably have those things naturally.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I think there's very few EASY ways to get all things moving together. Why? Pick up a disc with your opposite hand and try to throw a backhand (except for you ambidextrous bastards) . That's what it feels like for a true beginner.

So my opinion has been to kill off the x-step immediately.

I posted these over at DGR and think a core set of skills could be:

1. Balanced from start to finish.
2. Bracing against the plant leg along an axis that can transfer forward motion into rotational motion. (Insert Tome Here)
3. Elbow leading the shoulder before forearm extension.
4. 90 degree angle between upper arm and spine
5. Hand on the outside of the disc to the point of forearm extension (most commonly center chest to right pec).
6. Hand speed slow enough into the power pocket that it doesn't over power grip strength as the hand redirects to the 3:00+ release points.
7. Follow through on the line you're throwing.
8. Release the torque on your knee via a pivoting of the plant foot.

 

[TAFL]

We do tend to get side-tracked with the tiny details,

I wager it's correct to note that newbies certainly don't need all the details. However, I believe it's imperative to make certain that they get all of the necessary general information from the outset so they can avoid the worst of the bad habits.

I spent many years with bad habits because I couldn't get enough detail in answers to my questions to sort out what I was doing wrong. Yeah, I could muscle my Eclipse out 300' pretty regularly and bust it another 40' or 50' on occasion. I had lots of practice on the "basics"--and lack of clarity about those basics had me frustrated. I came out of the military eating rusty nails for breakfast, running farther than any sane person should ever think of doing, and yet still couldn't muscle the discs any farther. And now, only after deciding to dedicate more time to the sport and finding someplace online to discuss it do I find the details that nobody was able to give me all those years ago.

So, any widely-circulated teaching aid should reflect the best possible version of the basics...and just a little bit more. Enough that beginners can figure out that, yes, the nose of the disc does need to be flat or angled down a bit and how to make certain that happens, and, yes, the disc needs to be thrown with a "fast, flat flip" with the emphasis on the "fast" just before release and so forth. The reader prolly won't retain it all from the first viewing (or first several), yet it's there to be had.

And then, perhaps, discussions of feeling how the weight of the disc shifts during the snap will prove useful.

 

[Star Shark]

For the basics, the clinic that ZJ did with Yeti at Discnation is really good, plus the Beto Driving video and Brad Walker's More Snap 2009 is what I often send to people looking to improve.

 

[SpringDgLover]

I think there's very few EASY ways to get all things moving together. Why? Pick up a disc with your opposite hand and try to throw a backhand (except for you ambidextrous bastards) . That's what it feels like for a true beginner.

So my opinion has been to kill off the x-step immediately.

I posted these over at DGR and think a core set of skills could be:

1. Balanced from start to finish.
2. Bracing against the plant leg along an axis that can transfer forward motion into rotational motion. (Insert Tome Here)
3. Elbow leading the shoulder before forearm extension.
4. 90 degree angle between upper arm and spine
5. Hand on the outside of the disc to the point of forearm extension (most commonly center chest to right pec).
6. Hand speed slow enough into the power pocket that it doesn't over power grip strength as the hand redirects to the 3:00+ release points. diagram of clock and how it relates to a persons body during the throw
7. Follow through on the line you're throwing.
8. Release the torque on your knee via a pivoting of the plant foot.

Can we get some graphical diagrams of the steps I've highlighted in blue? Also a picture of the "clock" and how it relates to the thrower.

 

[eegor]

This is venturing into the realm of can you teach/learn balance or rhythm?

Yep, some people can dance and some can't.

 

[zj1002]

This is about the worst advice you could ever give someone, even if it's true. If you convince someone that it's not worth trying to get better, then they'll be much more likely to stop trying to get better. Then when they don't get better, it looks like you were right because they still suck.

I agree with all that. I don't like telling people that, and I don't phrase it in a way that stops them from trying. I make reference to that right after what you qouted.

Its no reason not keep trying to help someone, it just usually needs work before advanced stuff comes into play.

I know most people just want to be casually good and want to go at their own pace. My job during a lesson is to give them the tools they can use to get better in their own time. I can't make someone physically improve in a 1-hour lesson, but I can embed a concept to change how they think about the entire process.

This is venturing into the realm of can you teach/learn balance or rhythm?

I think its vitally important. The people that have this naturally are able to learn on their own. I had to teach this too myself to improve my game. It reworked everything about my "swing" after I finally grasped it. Nothing about my elbow, shoulders, wrist, etc made sense(or lined up) until I fixed this problem. You seem not agree?

 

[zj1002]

5. Hand on the outside of the disc to the point of forearm extension (most commonly center chest to right pec).
6. Hand speed slow enough into the power pocket that it doesn't over power grip strength as the hand redirects to the 3:00+ release points.

These 2 things are something I really want to do write up or video on. I was working really hard these past 6 months to have an elbow/shoulder setup with more efficient mechanics for flat lines/planes(similar to Brad Williams). I really just wanted to learn some new lines that I usually don't feel confident on.

But it was limiting my ability to keep my hand on the outside of the disc and leverage it around. I went back to my old style(Similar to GG) and it created a lot more leverage and pop. Its something I'll keep trying to improve, but it made me realize how important that was to helping hold onto the disc through the hit. I could feel the difference in the zone instantly.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think its vitally important. The people that have this naturally are able to learn on their own. I had to teach this too myself to improve my game. It reworked everything about my "swing" after I finally grasped it. Nothing about my elbow, shoulders, wrist, etc made sense(or lined up) until I fixed this problem. You seem not agree?

I agree with that, most the advice I give here is about changing your balance and posture. I was just posing that this discussion is venturing into that question, to which the answer is yes, no, maybe.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Can we get some graphical diagrams of the steps I've highlighted in blue? Also a picture of the "clock" and how it relates to the thrower.

http://www.heavydisc.com/2014/12/tyler-liebman-eagle-drive-form-breakdown.html

Clock reference visual

Holding to the hit point

 

[46YearOldSlinger]

Thanks, HUB. I've heard this one over and over but I still don't understand what is meant by Elbow leading the shoulder. I'd love some detail on exactly what that means.

3. Elbow leading the shoulder before forearm extension.

 

[zj1002]

I agree with that, most the advice I give here is about changing your balance and posture. I was just posing that this discussion is venturing into that question, to which the answer is yes, no, maybe.

Yeah I'd venture to say it depends on the person. I know lot of pros that don't understand that tucking their elbow in or swooping the shoulder causes problems and they beat me all the time.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Originally Posted by sidewinder22
This is venturing into the realm of can you teach/learn balance or rhythm?

You can, IMO teach it. Are there unteachable people? Hell yes. Golf pros make their bread and butter by teaching rich guys who can't learn it, and will likely suck at golf for life.

3. Elbow leading the shoulder before forearm extension.

Fancy way of saying, get your elbow driven out front, so that the extension happens out front.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

These 2 things are something I really want to do write up or video on. I was working really hard these past 6 months to have an elbow/shoulder setup with more efficient mechanics for flat lines/planes(similar to Brad Williams). I really just wanted to learn some new lines that I usually don't feel confident on.

Sounds like that would make a great first heavy disc article!

seriously.

 

[zj1002]

Fancy way of saying, get your elbow driven out front, so that the extension happens out front.

The thing I usually fix the most with this is just getting the elbow up. Most people tuck it in to the body as they extend the wrist. I have a drill to improve this using a tall pole/post or open door. I'll see if I can get video or images.

 

[zj1002]

Sounds like that would make a great first heavy disc article!

seriously.

yup. I was thinking that. I'll do some-thinking. I may just give you the material and spring board you.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

And since this is getting some eyes, I want to make my plea yet again.

If you guys have any interest in writing, technical / historical / funny / painful / whatever - heavydisc is available for you as a platform to share.

It's got a pretty good readership now - it's had almost 300,000 page views since I started posting about a year ago.

I know it might feel like, "ahh, nobody wants to hear what I have to say... I'm not a pro..." but the reality is that my favorite stuff comes from non-pros.

Besides if you guys don't start writing some articles, I'll go back to salsa dancing on video and nobody needs to see that.