The Gospel of the PD

[philvb85]

It's flying like that new, Phil? Maybe you got one with a freakishly low PLH? Other than that, I can't see what would make it fly like that. Even my lightest River isn't quite that flippy.

Yep, I just bought it last week. I haven't thought to check the PLH on it. I forgot to mention that it is a P-Line. I guess it could be OAT but I have never had this sort of problem with any other disc, and I normally throw a lot of stable to under stable plastic.

 

[discspeed]

The P's sure are all over the place. This is why I make the S-PD my main disc. They have been pretty consistent for me across runs--the HSS varies a little, but they all have the same LSS and overall flight character. I prefer the S-PD for hyzers, tight/straight S turns, and anhyzers over the P-PD as it's LSS makes it more predictable. I have 2 P's in my bag. One is totally thrashed and is my truly understable disc for utility/rollers. The other is a new stiffy and I use for straight/tunnel shots that don't turn or fade. Basically the P's are specialty discs for me to do the couple of things that the S's don't do well. Then the C-PD is my specialty disc on the overstable end of the spectrum.

 

[tboese]

If there is such a variation in the P-plastic PD's, does anyone know why this is? I've read a bit about the different dyes actually changing stability somehow, but if the PLH is actually varying a lot between different P-PD's, why in the world is that unless they purposely change the mold? I've got a new P-PD coming in the mail, sounds like I'll be wanting an S also to have something that will break in and be a more consistent disc.

 

[discspeed]

If there is such a variation in the P-plastic PD's, does anyone know why this is? I've read a bit about the different dyes actually changing stability somehow, but if the PLH is actually varying a lot between different P-PD's, why in the world is that unless they purposely change the mold? I've got a new P-PD coming in the mail, sounds like I'll be wanting an S also to have something that will break in and be a more consistent disc.

This is very simple...They are using completely different mixes of Pro plastic. They range from pancake floppy to stiff as a board, completely flat to moderately domey. It has nothing to do with the mold. Molding with different blends costs nothing (except QC and making customers happy, which is obviously not much of a cost for Innova), however, making different mold parts would cost in the $10000s.

 

[tboese]

Yeah I figured as much with the different molds. Guess it's just amazing that they have so many different plastic blends. I suppose when you order them you get to have a surprise of whether it's stiff/floppy/flat/domey, etc. Guess it makes it interesting. Wonder what mine will be!?

 

[krik72]

Ive bought 4 S-PD's and 4 P-PD's all from different places.

All 4 P-PD's were flat, stiff, slight dome, decently stable to start all very close in stability. Various colors.
All 4 S-PD's were different but all more stable than the P-PD's and stable enough to use as stable drivers. All 4 were yellow.

I bet you get a stiff/flat P-PD these days but best of luck!

 

[zj10021]

I'm digging this red champy-star. Still stable but bombs on long hyzers and flex shots. Been breaking it in with overhead shots, it is a suprisingly accurate thomahawk disc. I might need to get a cpd for overhead shots once this spd breaks in

 

[jubuttib]

Guess it's just amazing that they have so many different plastic blends.

My understanding is that Innova (at least partially) mixes their plastic at the plant and different people might very well do things differently. That, and they always go on about how they can't get decent consistent raw material from the manufacturers.

I suppose when you order them you get to have a surprise of whether it's stiff/floppy/flat/domey, etc. Guess it makes it interesting. Wonder what mine will be!?

You can ask them to pick out domey/flat/gummy/stiff ones when you order. Just remember: There are lots of different PDs, but there are no bad PDs. =)

 

[discspeed]

Guess it's just amazing that they have so many different plastic blends.

My understanding is that Innova (at least partially) mixes their plastic at the plant and different people might very well do things differently. That, and they always go on about how they can't get decent consistent raw material from the manufacturers.

I suspect this is because they only buy on the super cheap...It's like complaining that you can't get a matching set of kitchenware when you only shop at Salvation Army or Goodwill. That complaint is most certainly BS...Ask anyone in plastics...There is a lot of really technical work done with polymers and consistency is simply a matter of chemistry. It costs $ though, probably not a lot more than they are paying, but enough to cut into their pockets (because most DGers aren't going to foot the bill). I know this due to my experiences with MVP...They order the same plastics all the time, and they are always the same. The MVP factory makes a lot of really technical stuff for the automakers, so the capability is there, just not the demand in terms of $$$$. I suspect Innova buys secondhand from manufacturers of plastic products rather from the source itself, but who really knows.

 

[jubuttib]

I remember that too, but wasn't one of the main reasons MVP guys can get so consistent plastic that they have a plastic manufacturer in the family?

 

[discspeed]

I remember that too, but wasn't one of the main reasons MVP guys can get so consistent plastic that they have a plastic manufacturer in the family?

They have an injection molding factory, but they do not manufacture polymer beads. They do however order plastics directly from the manufacturer, and I remember them being very suspect regarding inconsistent plastic from manufacturers. Plastic is big business and it gets pretty technical. A manufacturer of polymers would not stay in business if people were ordering the same thing and getting something different.

It's my armchair theory that Innova and perhaps other disc manufacturers buy plastic secondhand from large molding companies with overstock plastics or plastics that have been reground or otherwise altered too much to meet their QC standards. I think this is what most of our discs are made of. There's nothing at all wrong with this, other than making consistency over time impossible. This is what I theorize happened with CE plastic...It was bought as a discount lot of regrind (or somehow altered in another way). This is why there was no formula...It was some mix of several plastics or recycled plastics that was more or less considered waste by the primary manufacturer. This also explains why, according to Innova, they ordered the same thing from the same people and it was different.

 

[ManU]

on this ^^^^ theory surely CE could be replicated again now should someone care to determine and replicate its polymer structure no?

but as stated $$$$ gets in the way

 

[discspeed]

on this ^^^^ theory surely CE could be replicated again now should someone care to determine and replicate its polymer structure no?

but as stated $$$$ gets in the way

I don't think it could be replicated. What I was hypothesizing above was that CE was a conglomerate of different types of urethane ( and perhaps small amounts of other polymers) in different states of regrind from a large injection molding manufacturer--basically polymer waste. Being a large injection molding manufacturer, they probably use a lot of different plastics all the time that ends up in the waste/regrind bins. So the manufacturer probably didn't even know everything that was in there, and when Innova bought the same thing from them again, the mix came out quite a bit different.

This theory also makes sense of the fact that CE plastic was a huge risk, as it was very different in feel, flight, and break in characteristics from what everyone at the time was used to. This was when I first started playing, and the only pro I knew at the time scoffed at it as he continued to throw all dx plastic (He did eventually come around). Innova would not have gone out and bought expensive plastic when the demand for it was unknown, unless they just happened upon the CE plastic for next to nothing. It also produced so many bad parts that I don't think Innova would have continued messing with it at all unless they paid next to nothing for it.

I don't know how easy it is to formulate in reverse, especially considering it has all degraded and broken down some at this point.

Wow, I apologize to the PD for misdirecting it's thread...PDs rule!

 

[Jesse B 707]

if you can get Echo DD2's why the hell cant i buy some Echo PD's yet????!!

 

[booter]

echo pds would fucking rule. As well as glow c pds. Mmmmmmm

 

[Frank Delicious]

Re: P-PDs being crazy in stability.

I was getting all crazy mad about my P-PDs being all over the place in stability until I realized I was trying to force the disc to do what I expected it to do, not what it is gonna do. So now I have 4 or so P PDs that flip over that I use for turn over drivers when I don't want to lose my beat SOLF and 3 P PDs that throw pretty damn straight.

 

[ManU]

PDs and OLFs side by side in the same bag???
break down those walls of intolerance Frankie!!!!

 

[zj10021]

I parked a 325 Tommy spd on hole 18 today to shoot -11 in doubles today a new course record. I love this disc for stable tommy shots. The previous record was -8 for doubles. The pd was only used on that hole but it was a sick shot. I also now carry an spd and solf. Solf handles sweeping hyzers better

 

[krik72]

+1 to that.

PD's are GREAT overhand.

 

[Timko]

I tried to get both Glow C's and Echo S's for this latest run of DGR PDs, but they had neither .