The Kinetic Sequence

[RFrance]

This goes well with Dr. Chris Yeager's videos in post #8 above.

I had a light bulb "aha" moment today when I realized that you don't need to accelerate the throw by "goosing it" to the hit. The acceleration happens by itself and starts from the pendulum swing heading to bottom of the arc. Then, the "braking" of each body segment multiplies the acceleration. With the waltz tempo the acceleration is built in. The simpler the swing the better the result. :doh:

The Linear Kinematic Sequence

"It is known that there is an efficient sequence of motion in a skilled golf swing called the Kinematic Sequence. It describes the proximal-to-distal sequencing of the rotation speeds of the body segments. Each body segment; pelvis, ribcage and arm sequentially accelerates and decelerates before impact, starting from the inner large body segments; the pelvis and ribcage, then progressing to the smaller outer segments; the arms, hands and club. Each successive segment peaks faster and later than the previous segment. This action causes the club to accelerate rapidly and reach its highest speed at impact. Figure 1 shows the graph of the rotational Kinematic Sequence of a world class golfer and includes images of his position at each peak speed point in the downswing.

It is also known that the golf swing is not only rotational; it has a linear component of motion as well. Therefore it would make sense that there is also a linear kinematic sequence during the downswing, and in fact there is. Figure 2 shows the linear Kinematic Sequence graph of a world class golfer. It shows the linear speed of his lead hip, lead shoulder, mid-hands and club head.

Look in the shaded gray area of Figure 2 and notice how, during the downswing, the lead hip accelerates (goes up) and reaches its peak speed first, then decelerates (goes down), followed by the lead shoulder, the mid-hands and finally the club. Notice that these accelerations and decelerations are all before impact and that the only segment that doesn't decelerate prior to impact is the club head. As we would expect, the club head accelerates during the downswing and reaches max speed at impact. Notice that each successive peak speed occurs later in the downswing than the previous one and is faster than the previous one.

In fact, it is not as important what the speeds of the joints are at impact but what their maximum speeds are earlier in the downswing. We expect their speeds at impact to be lower because of the deceleration phase of each joint as it passes energy to the next segment - each joint is slowed down by the interaction force of the next segment accelerating against it. Take for example the mid-hands curve. You see that its highest speed is 22.6 mph and its speed at impact is 19 mph. For the mid-hands curve, the deceleration is related to the explosiveness of the release. The faster the release of the wrists the more the deceleration and the slower the hands will be at impact. It is a nice example of the action-reaction law of motion; the force of the club releasing causes and opposite force on the hands causing the lead arm to slow down. This means that measuring hand speed at impact may be misleading. It's better to know what the peak hand speed was earlier in the downswing. From our research at TPI we have compiled a tour pro database and from this database, we have found that the average peak mid-hands speed in the downswing is 22.0 mph and the average mid-hands speed at impact is 17.6 mph."
© Phil Cheetham
https://www.mytpi.com/articles/biomechanics/the_linear_kinematic_sequence

Comments:
"Great job Phil In the linear swing the hips job is to swivel to accomidate the levers which produce most of the power in this swing, so yes there is rotation its just not the main force."
Glenn Deck(PGA Top 100 Instructor) 3/25/2014 11:49 PM

"Rotational is secondary to the linear component (per Mike Austin)"
Anonymous User 3/20/2014 2:06 PM

 

[sidewinder22]

Can skip the first 5 min, and last 3.

 

[eGbu]

I have spent some time the last few days crushing imaginary cans and elephant walking around my apartment, and I think I have found something. When my right heel plants, it feels like it pulls my right hip forward, which in turn pulls my right shoulder. As long as I get into the backswing and keep my elbow wide, everything else feels completely automatic.

The trebuchet analogy makes total sense from what I'm feeling - my heel (weight) drops and everything just unwinds. Is this the correct sequence? It has been raining non-stop here lately so I haven't tried actually throwing yet!

 

[joohn]

I have spent some time the last few days crushing imaginary cans and elephant walking around my apartment, and I think I have found something. When my right heel plants, it feels like it pulls my right hip forward, which in turn pulls my right shoulder. As long as I get into the backswing and keep my elbow wide, everything else feels completely automatic.

The trebuchet analogy makes total sense from what I'm feeling - my heel (weight) drops and everything just unwinds. Is this the correct sequence? It has been raining non-stop here lately so I haven't tried actually throwing yet!

Recently my form has not been feeling 100% and i've realized that I was planting directly onto my heel, instead of toe to heel. When I am throwing my best, it is toe first, then planting the weight on the heel and unwinding as you describe. it's a great way to nail the timing of the throw, start the movement from the ground up, and not open up early. So I agree with your description 100%.

Also since this is bumped, I gotta say that this thread has been the single best resource for my understanding of the mechanics of the swing/throw. it should be stickied to help newer players such as myself understand what to look for in your throw and how to compare that to the pros. just a suggestion

 

[timothy42b]

Can skip the first 5 min, and last 3.

I think we should get Paige and Paul on one of those force plates.

If I understand what he's saying in the Matt Wolff video, Matt forces rotation by pushing laterally (front and back of his body, perpendicular to target direction) with his feet, then abruptly stops that rotation with a vertical force "getting onto the front leg" and transfers momentum to the arms and club.

From the discussions here, we think disc golfers do the opposite: stop horizontal momentum with a vertical force "brace" and forces rotation. Ball golf: rotation before vertical force and brace; disc golf rotation after vertical force and brace.

I'm not at a skill level where this matters to me personally but it's interesting.

 

[sidewinder22]

Would love to see all the top players on it and Ams.

I think we would see way more horizontal and vertical, and way less torque in disc golfers compared to ball golfers, unless all the ball golfers are doing the Happy Gilmore. If we have more linear speed targetward and wider stance, there is simply less way to push perpendicular/rotate, especially from the rear foot.

 

[sidewinder22]

Elephant Walk Drill is actually an extreme rotational drill, there is very little horizontal force/shift, and almost all torque pushing perpendicular to target. Similar with One Leg Drill.

 

[timothy42b]

Elephant Walk Drill is actually an extreme rotational drill, there is very little horizontal force/shift, and almost all torque pushing perpendicular to target. Similar with One Leg Drill.

I think we would see way more horizontal and vertical, and way less torque in disc golfers compared to ball golfers, unless all the ball golfers are doing the Happy Gilmore. If we have more linear speed targetward and wider stance, there is simply less way to push perpendicular/rotate, especially from the rear foot.

This makes sense to me. It implies that you could generate force either way, but not both at the same time, I think. And for anyone less than an Olympic athlete going back and forth would probably lead to confusion.

It seems then like an X step throw must be mostly horizontal, a pure standstill shot must be nearly pure torque, but both need front leg weight to do the momentum transfer. A one step stride throw probably could be either.

Stokely thinks that in the future the pros would develop two distinctly different mechanics, one for full power drives and a different type for approaches and shorter shots.

 

[oldmandiscer]

Just don't hyperextend the front knee like he does sometimes aka Tiger Woods Leg Snap.

Tiger said that lead to ligament damage by snapping the knee. I suspect Drew could suffer the same issues moving forward if he continues to do that. Powerful but not healthy long term.

 

[BruisedOoze]

Would love to see all the top players on it and Ams.

I think we would see way more horizontal and vertical, and way less torque in disc golfers compared to ball golfers, unless all the ball golfers are doing the Happy Gilmore. If we have more linear speed targetward and wider stance, there is simply less way to push perpendicular/rotate, especially from the rear foot.

Sidewinder, what were the 2 videos preceeding the Turbo Encablator video? For some reason getting a Country Lock (region restriction) on those videos. I'm in Canada, for what it's worth, and it's the first time I've seen it with any links you've provided. Wasn't sure if it was one of your personal drill videos or something else.

 

[sidewinder22]

Sidewinder, what were the 2 videos preceeding the Turbo Encablator video? For some reason getting a Country Lock (region restriction) on those videos. I'm in Canada, for what it's worth, and it's the first time I've seen it with any links you've provided. Wasn't sure if it was one of your personal drill videos or something else.

Kyle Berkshire and Chloe Gardner breakdown.

 

[BeRReGoN]

I'll post it in here instead of starting a new thread but I watched Paul Oman on a couple of coverages recently, I really like his slow and deliberate reach back. Also he's throwing with a fan grip and he can bomb for sure.

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[sidewinder22]

How to Step into your Throw:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4lTAX3sfd4#t=9m

 

[seedlings]

What drill emphasizes this position? The leaned-over, braced, extended hit position? My hips and shoulders are Rotating too fast, or my arm is too slow. I don't often find this spot.

 

[tbr75]

I'll post it in here instead of starting a new thread but I watched Paul Oman on a couple of coverages recently, I really like his slow and deliberate reach back. Also he's throwing with a fan grip and he can bomb for sure.

Paul has a massive wingspan he's taking advantage of, but he also has a very efficient throw. All the energy he generates is put on the disc with no/little resistance, he throws putters super clean. He doesn't have a massive brace so he has more distance potential, but when you throw 500ft with a slow controlled x-step you don't need to try for more distance.

 

[BeRReGoN]

Paul has a massive wingspan he's taking advantage of, but he also has a very efficient throw. All the energy he generates is put on the disc with no/little resistance, he throws putters super clean. He doesn't have a massive brace so he has more distance potential, but when you throw 500ft with a slow controlled x-step you don't need to try for more distance.

Yes I really like is smooth form, I'm not 6'4 but I tried to do a similar form in my yesterday rounds and the result was really good.

 

[RoDeO]

I'll post it in here instead of starting a new thread but I watched Paul Oman on a couple of coverages recently, I really like his slow and deliberate reach back. Also he's throwing with a fan grip and he can bomb for sure.

Just copied his reachback and unwind and I was getting 30-40 feet extra distance on my drives. Not sure how far I could of thrown it without wind but did get one out to almost 350 feet into a 25mph headwind. I could totally feel more power in my throw.

 

[azplaya25]

What drill emphasizes this position? The leaned-over, braced, extended hit position? My hips and shoulders are Rotating too fast, or my arm is too slow. I don't often find this spot.

In my form thread, SW recommended I throw on the side of a steep hill. I've also been practicing the "swivel stairs" drill. It might be as much about dynamic balance/body positioning as it is the speed of your hips and shoulders and arm.


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[NoseDownKing]

Exactly - to throw further you have to loosen up(remaining taut and balanced) and make the swing longer like Long Toss Drill (LTD) or Perpetually Longer Swing Drill (PLSD).

What many Ams really struggle with is the mental aspect or hurdle or discipline it takes to wait for the energy to build on the front side and not trying to spin the disc or body. It feels like waiting forever and really slow and not powerful, compared to strong arming which feels really tight and fast and powerful. You almost have to not care about distance or creating power or spin, and really take a leap of faith to letting the physics happen which most Ams just aren't willing to do or trust. This is why when people have big form breakthroughs it's often mind blowing to them.

If you compare the frame by frame timing of most Ams to Wiggins there, the Ams have already released the disc by frame #5 because they accelerated so fast out of the gate.

This is definitely huge

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