The Twitch of the Hips

[RowingBoats]

Watch the equal and opposite moves of the left and right side of the body. They both end up where the other starts out. If we draw a line from top to bottom around that axis it goes exactly down the spine.

What do you think a brace is, exactly? If rotation is the engine of power, why wouldn't you just throw flat footed and rotate as fast as possible? Because it feels weak when you try it? Ya, I know. That is why you start moving laterally, brace the momentum, then swing.

Just take a second and think about the things you are saying a bit man.

 

[sidewinder22]

Here's something on want you to try Sidewinder- practice a swing where you have zero turn before your brace. Literally no rotation whatsoever until all your weight has shifted and that front leg is coming up signifying a good strong brace. Try thst for me. I will bet everything that you cant engage your hips properly. Practice what you preach, go and do it and prove me wrong.

 

[sidewinder22]

Watch the equal and opposite moves of the left and right side of the body. They both end up where the other starts out. If we draw a line from top to bottom around that axis it goes exactly down the spine.

 

[timothy42b]

Here's an example of why it's easy to get confused or see the other end of the elephant.

Here's Paige demonstrating the importance of the linear movement (and the drive off the back leg, but I digress):



And now here's Drew, getting power by snapping his hips, especially up to about 2:15:

 

[SaROCaM]

I do look at it as a whole system. I realize that all of the acceleration and culmination of power happens on the front brace leg. My point is that in order to get to all of that you have to initiate certain motions and put yourself in the correct sequence so that it comes to pass. For example- you don't get the powerful torso rotation you see in the birds eye view that happens on the brace leg without the initiation of hip rotation coming into brace yet before the brace actually happens.. You don't get powerful torso rotation without lag or separation between hips and shoulders.

1) If the movement happens from the ground up, shouldn't the axis have a link to the ground? If we are shifting weight forward onto a brace leg, isn't the axis from the ground up? Wouldn't that mean the spine (head to hips) is only a component of the axis, and that hips to ground is the rest of the axis? Is the axis not a "net axis" connecting the ground to the head?

2) Lag/separation seems to be covered in the door frame drills. Door frame drill part 3 addresses the difference between the separation created by striding and settling vs. spinning (around 1:55 in the video)

3) More on the topic of sequencing and separation, what do you make of these K-Vest graphs that show the hip-shoulder separation (X-factor) happens after heel strike? Wouldn't that mean the hips opening up to create hip-shoulder separation happens after the front foot heel is down?

 

[sidewinder22]

Axis of rotation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9pi56fi2BA#t=8m50s

 

[RocHucker]

Can you please link the video that you captured these images from? I'd love to step through it frame by frame

 

[sidewinder22]

Can you please link the video that you captured these images from? I'd love to step through it frame by frame

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES1p9jtWsW0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wX801JaoUY#t=3m15s

 

[RoDeO]

No, actually throw a disc and throw it over 400 feet.

 

[RoDeO]

1) If the movement happens from the ground up, shouldn't the axis have a link to the ground? If we are shifting weight forward onto a brace leg, isn't the axis from the ground up? Wouldn't that mean the spine (head to hips) is only a component of the axis, and that hips to ground is the rest of the axis? Is the axis not a "net axis" connecting the ground to the head?

2) Lag/separation seems to be covered in the door frame drills. Door frame drill part 3 addresses the difference between the separation created by striding and settling vs. spinning (around 1:55 in the video)

3) More on the topic of sequencing and separation, what do you make of these K-Vest graphs that show the hip-shoulder separation (X-factor) happens after heel strike? Wouldn't that mean the hips opening up to create hip-shoulder separation happens after the front foot heel is down?

The rotation of the hips ,torso, and shoulders happen around the spine. Take for example the case of a spike hyzer. The player is bent way over and slanted, kind of away from his plant foot if you were looking down the spine of his back. His rotation doesnt follow a line from inbetween his shoulders going straight into his plant foot. This actually shows two planes of rotation- 1. The rotation of the hips, torso and shoulders around the spine. 2. The rotation of the body connected to the leg, which momentum causes a second pivot around the pivot point of the foot.
Now, I can certainly pivot just around the foot like an ice skater but that's not what's happening in a disc golf throw. The upper body pivots around the spine and the whole body, because of momentum, pivots on a second plane around the foot.

The problem with the door frame drill is that the motions he walks through doesn't mimic the actual disc golf throw. He shows himself leaning his weight onto his front side with his butt facing the target at that point and pulling with his arm. But that isn't what happens in a disc golf throw. In a disc golf throw the arm doesn't pull against the brace of the foot. Well, I guess it can, if you are strong arming (once again another way of showing if one is using arms or hips) the disc. In a disc golf throw, done properly, the rotation of the hips and torso whip the arm through into release. That hip and torso pull against the brace but its a completely different feeling.

The K vest graph doesn't capture the brace moment does it? How would they know? Are they using a pressure gauge under his foot to signify brace moment? As the weight transitions from rear to front there's a significant period where the foot makes first contact to when the brace actually takes place. You feel this even more as a lag in the disc golf throw. Even though there is first contact with the front leg, its not doing much of anything until the heel comes down and the weight, after that, truly shifts into brace. It's dynamic in that it takes some time until the brace actually occurs from when first contact is actually made. By the time of actual brace, the hips have already made a substantial rotation. It's at that moment that one should have maximum hip to shoulder separation.

 

[RoDeO]

Watch very carefully for the moment right after his heel fully comes down and the foot slides forward slightly signifying brace/weight shift. At that moment his hips have already substantially rotated forward. It's also the precise moment when there is maximum separation between the hips and shoulders. I'm not making this stuff up, it's reality- what actually happens.

 

[SaROCaM]

Watch very carefully for the moment right after his heel fully comes down and the foot slides forward slightly signifying brace/weight shift. At that moment his hips have already substantially rotated forward. It's also the precise moment when there is maximum separation between the hips and shoulders. I'm not making this stuff up, it's reality- what actually happens.

It seems you are making up your own reality. First you expanded brace into "strong brace" and now further expanded into brace+strong brace+foot sliding.

Are you saying is that there is a "significant lag" between toe down, heel down, and brace? If there is that much lag, maybe you are going too slowly. It is supposed to be a dynamic, athletic movement.

You can make as many GIFs as you want; until the GIF maker has demonstrated they actually know what is happening, the GIFs they make are questionable, especially when all it really amounts to is a competing account of what they "see."

Which of these carries more weight:

A. Your perception of what is happening, which goes against what experienced and knowledgeable people are saying
B. What biomechanics researchers and experts are saying, backed by data, studies, physical diagrams

Until you present evidence that amounts to more than "this is what I see and feel" it is difficult to be convinced that you know better than the established posters on the board who have demonstrated knowledge and/or success.

Another layer in the discussion is defining what is optimal. When you only focus on what people do, you are bound to observe some suboptimal things simply because people/situations are not perfect. Suboptimal doesn't necessarily mean bad, it means that there is some room for improvement.

I suppose what I want to see is evidence of what is optimal, explanations of how/why things deviate from the ideal, and an evaluation of how much those things matter.

 

[RoDeO]

It seems you are making up your own reality. First you expanded brace into "strong brace" and now further expanded into brace+strong brace+foot sliding.

Are you saying is that there is a "significant lag" between toe down, heel down, and brace? If there is that much lag, maybe you are going too slowly. It is supposed to be a dynamic, athletic movement.

You can make as many GIFs as you want; until the GIF maker has demonstrated they actually know what is happening, the GIFs they make are questionable, especially when all it really amounts to is a competing account of what they "see."

Which of these carries more weight:

A. Your perception of what is happening, which goes against what experienced and knowledgeable people are saying
B. What biomechanics researchers and experts are saying, backed by data, studies, physical diagrams

Until you present evidence that amounts to more than "this is what I see and feel" it is difficult to be convinced that you know better than the established posters on the board who have demonstrated knowledge and/or success.

Another layer in the discussion is defining what is optimal. When you only focus on what people do, you are bound to observe some suboptimal things simply because people/situations are not perfect. Suboptimal doesn't necessarily mean bad, it means that there is some room for improvement.

I suppose what I want to see is evidence of what is optimal, explanations of how/why things deviate from the ideal, and an evaluation of how much those things matter.

The reason I emphasize the "strong bracing" is because there is a lot of misconception on when the brace occurs. I've seen too many cases of this in baseball and now with disc golf. Instructors will pause video at the moment of first contact with the lead foot and associate it with the brace moment when it really isn't. Until the lead foot makes substantial contact and there is a definite pressure felt there can't be a brace. The brace m7st be "strong" or firm if it is goung to positively affect what you are doing. If that brace slips or isn't firm/strong you can in our yourself or the disc eont go far or go offline, etc. I injured my groin on a throw once because the tee pad was wet and I slipped. The disc also didn't go very far because no strong brace was present. Slipping at that moment isn't good because that is the moment where you begin to apply acceleration and power. I brought up the "sliding" part on his brace just to bring up the sign that his foot was bracing at that point.

There's a lot happening between when the lead foot just starts to make contact up until the actual brace. The hips rotate about 30 degrees during that time.

As for what people say is happening vs. what is actually happening are often two separate things. A person can say lots of different things about what they think happens. The video evidence doesn't lie- it actually shows what really happens. It's why I take a lot of what instructors say without much weight until it can be coupled with video evidence to show they both line up. You could have 10 separate instructors all preaching the same thing and have all 10 instructors be wrong. It's why video is the bottom line- it just doesn't lie. You could have all 10 instructors teaching the hips have no rotation until brace and video evidence clearly shows the hips do in fact rotate before brace. I think a lot of it has to do with defing the brace moment. For example- if you stand ferr shoulder length apart and rock side to side you can feel the weight shift from one foot to the other. But even though both feet are on the ground doesn't mean there is weight on one or both. There is a lag time of sorts when you rock back and forth to where you actually feel the weight shift. If you do it fast enough you can feel it kind of float between the two in the middle. It's precisely this fact that there is this lag time between when the foot first makes contact until there is an actual brace that can offer anything power wise to the throw.

Defining what is optimal is debatable from one person to the next. Each throw a little differently and feel different things when they throw which they personally believe are optimal and important. But what is important for one may be of little to no importance to another because they throw different. Tristan Tanner's super slow x step is obviously important to him but completely opposite to Paige Pierce who believes you have to have a fast lateral shift. They both can bomb discs so it's not like how fast or slow one moves is truly optimal across the board. Each player has to find what works for them and what they develop ends up being optimal for them but may not translate into optimal for another. Each player is going to feel and experience different things in their throw that most likely will be different to some degree or another with what other players feel and experience. The problems arise when a player becomes convinced of what they feel and preach others must do such and such but yet what is really happening is actually different. Our minds have a way of blurring the details and timing and so we come to believe we are doing something when we actually aren't.

All I know is that I must be thinking optimally for at least myself because 300+ foot shots are becoming almost too simple now after just 4 months since I started. I walk almost in slow motion and just do a little reachback and then with a little twitch of the hips right before brace it sets off a smooth effortless delivery that expells the disc perfectly flat without any wobble and it just shoots out there so fast and easy, perhaps too easy. Now I am learning how to just add more power and keep the timing and smoothness correct. Optimal for me right now is slow and smooth. For more distance all I do is speed up the last half of my x step which for me triggers more responsiveness by the hip twitch which triggers a more powerful turn.

There can be lots of variables in a player's throw but what matters the most for me with others is understanding that the weight transition and hip rotation are both dynamic smooth events that happen together. It's just absolutely not true that you want to delay all hip rotation until "brace". All that will do is promote strongarming the disc. The only real delay is keeping the shoulders turned facing rearward until maximum hip to shoulder separation which means the hips have turned forwards to some degree before the shoulders also turn. It's just not possible to wait until the brace moment to begin to turn the hips because that is the moment when the shoulders also must start to turn and there won't be adequate hip to shoulder rotation to power the pull through with the body. Randy proved this with his one leg throw that it is impossible to initiate hip rotation before the shoulders while balanced solely on the front leg. The best he could do is to rotate them almost simultaneously which means it is an all arm throw.

One of my own drills I do is to stand rearward and reach my hand back like I'm holding the disc and then start with my weight on my rear leg and transition the weight to my lead leg all the while pulling the arm entirely with the torque of the hips and torso. There is such a fine line between pulling the disc with your body vs pulling it with your arm even if one is leading with the hip in rotation. There's a lot of hybrid throws I see on the form forums where they are engaging their hips but they are also heavily engaging their arm too and the person is putting forth what appears to he a lot of effort and they aren't getting the disc out very far. I honestly believe most new players develop this hybrid throw and it is what keeps them from breaking into the 350+ and beyond mark.

 

[RandyC]

Shoulders and hip rotating simultaneously frame by frame. https://youtu.be/RkPwHUVInes?t=15

Wish you understood the human anatomy just a tad better so you wouldnt make these impossible arguments which require an alien anatomy. You must understand how frustrating it is to debate with you when you ignore facts.

 

[discerdoo]

The reason I emphasize the "strong bracing" is because there is a lot of misconception on when the brace occurs. I've seen too many cases of this in baseball and now with disc golf. Instructors will pause video at the moment of first contact with the lead foot and associate it with the brace moment when it really isn't. Until the lead foot makes substantial contact and there is a definite pressure felt there can't be a brace. The brace m7st be "strong" or firm if it is goung to positively affect what you are doing. If that brace slips or isn't firm/strong you can in our yourself or the disc eont go far or go offline, etc. I injured my groin on a throw once because the tee pad was wet and I slipped. The disc also didn't go very far because no strong brace was present. Slipping at that moment isn't good because that is the moment where you begin to apply acceleration and power. I brought up the "sliding" part on his brace just to bring up the sign that his foot was bracing at that point.

There's a lot happening between when the lead foot just starts to make contact up until the actual brace. The hips rotate about 30 degrees during that time.

As for what people say is happening vs. what is actually happening are often two separate things. A person can say lots of different things about what they think happens. The video evidence doesn't lie- it actually shows what really happens. It's why I take a lot of what instructors say without much weight until it can be coupled with video evidence to show they both line up. You could have 10 separate instructors all preaching the same thing and have all 10 instructors be wrong. It's why video is the bottom line- it just doesn't lie. You could have all 10 instructors teaching the hips have no rotation until brace and video evidence clearly shows the hips do in fact rotate before brace. I think a lot of it has to do with defing the brace moment. For example- if you stand ferr shoulder length apart and rock side to side you can feel the weight shift from one foot to the other. But even though both feet are on the ground doesn't mean there is weight on one or both. There is a lag time of sorts when you rock back and forth to where you actually feel the weight shift. If you do it fast enough you can feel it kind of float between the two in the middle. It's precisely this fact that there is this lag time between when the foot first makes contact until there is an actual brace that can offer anything power wise to the throw.

Defining what is optimal is debatable from one person to the next. Each throw a little differently and feel different things when they throw which they personally believe are optimal and important. But what is important for one may be of little to no importance to another because they throw different. Tristan Tanner's super slow x step is obviously important to him but completely opposite to Paige Pierce who believes you have to have a fast lateral shift. They both can bomb discs so it's not like how fast or slow one moves is truly optimal across the board. Each player has to find what works for them and what they develop ends up being optimal for them but may not translate into optimal for another. Each player is going to feel and experience different things in their throw that most likely will be different to some degree or another with what other players feel and experience. The problems arise when a player becomes convinced of what they feel and preach others must do such and such but yet what is really happening is actually different. Our minds have a way of blurring the details and timing and so we come to believe we are doing something when we actually aren't.

All I know is that I must be thinking optimally for at least myself because 300+ foot shots are becoming almost too simple now after just 4 months since I started. I walk almost in slow motion and just do a little reachback and then with a little twitch of the hips right before brace it sets off a smooth effortless delivery that expells the disc perfectly flat without any wobble and it just shoots out there so fast and easy, perhaps too easy. Now I am learning how to just add more power and keep the timing and smoothness correct. Optimal for me right now is slow and smooth. For more distance all I do is speed up the last half of my x step which for me triggers more responsiveness by the hip twitch which triggers a more powerful turn.

There can be lots of variables in a player's throw but what matters the most for me with others is understanding that the weight transition and hip rotation are both dynamic smooth events that happen together. It's just absolutely not true that you want to delay all hip rotation until "brace". All that will do is promote strongarming the disc. The only real delay is keeping the shoulders turned facing rearward until maximum hip to shoulder separation which means the hips have turned forwards to some degree before the shoulders also turn. It's just not possible to wait until the brace moment to begin to turn the hips because that is the moment when the shoulders also must start to turn and there won't be adequate hip to shoulder rotation to power the pull through with the body. Randy proved this with his one leg throw that it is impossible to initiate hip rotation before the shoulders while balanced solely on the front leg. The best he could do is to rotate them almost simultaneously which means it is an all arm throw.

One of my own drills I do is to stand rearward and reach my hand back like I'm holding the disc and then start with my weight on my rear leg and transition the weight to my lead leg all the while pulling the arm entirely with the torque of the hips and torso. There is such a fine line between pulling the disc with your body vs pulling it with your arm even if one is leading with the hip in rotation. There's a lot of hybrid throws I see on the form forums where they are engaging their hips but they are also heavily engaging their arm too and the person is putting forth what appears to he a lot of effort and they aren't getting the disc out very far. I honestly believe most new players develop this hybrid throw and it is what keeps them from breaking into the 350+ and beyond mark.

That's quite a manifesto. It seems to be a matter of life and death that you somehow convince someone that there may be a miniscule "twitch of the hips" a nanosecond before "strong brace".

Why?

You probably could have developed a cure for covid with the time and energy you've spent on this thread. Obsessive much?

 

[SaROCaM]

The reason I emphasize the "strong bracing" is because there is a lot of misconception on when the brace occurs.

You say this, but you were the one who said that Kevin Jones slipping while throwing a 530' ace shows that he didn't brace enough to contribute to the throw:

And as I remember he aced that hole on that shot. His brace didn't do it's main job of keepung him from crashing out. Even though his brace gave out he still got hip rotation and distance. Interesting.

In that analysis, you were extending the brace to a point after the disc had been released, when the relevant portion had already been completed. (Which is why he was able to throw the disc 530 feet.) This makes it more likely that when you are watching and commenting on video, you are mis-identifying the brace as taking place past the relevant point.

It is because of statements like this (among several others) that it is difficult to believe you are correctly identifying the brace moment when you point it out in a video.

Also, for someone who relies so much on video evidence, you seem to ignore all the video that shows athletes executing a brace without a foot making complete flat contact with the playing surface. If athletes can brace a great deal of momentum in this way, then why do you say that a foot has to make complete flat contact with the ground in order to brace?

Could it be that when the foot is completely flat on the ground, the relevant bracing event has already taken place and what you are pointing out is a post-brace event or transition point?

 

[RoDeO]

You say this, but you were the one who said that Kevin Jones slipping while throwing a 530' ace shows that he didn't brace enough to contribute to the throw:



In that analysis, you were extending the brace to a point after the disc had been released, when the relevant portion had already been completed. (Which is why he was able to throw the disc 530 feet.) This makes it more likely that when you are watching and commenting on video, you are mis-identifying the brace as taking place past the relevant point.

It is because of statements like this (among several others) that it is difficult to believe you are correctly identifying the brace moment when you point it out in a video.

Also, for someone who relies so much on video evidence, you seem to ignore all the video that shows athletes executing a brace without a foot making complete flat contact with the playing surface. If athletes can brace a great deal of momentum in this way, then why do you say that a foot has to make complete flat contact with the ground in order to brace?

Could it be that when the foot is completely flat on the ground, the relevant bracing event has already taken place and what you are pointing out is a post-brace event or transition point?

In general, most people brace with the whole foot down. There are some instances where the brace is more floaty. In those cases it actually bolsters my position that hip rotation initiation happens before brace. Sidewinder emphasizes this crush the can moment as there being a solid heel down pressure brace moment. Almost exclusively though, hip rotation begins before even the ball of the lead foot plants.

It's almost like you are seeing what I am showing and trying to adjust the goalposts to make the brace happen before it actually happens. Take my baseball swing GIF for example- his hips are clearly rotating before his toe even makes solid contact. You can't think his toe is the brace can you?

 

[RowingBoats]

In general, most people brace with the whole foot down. There are some instances where the brace is more floaty. In those cases it actually bolsters my position that hip rotation initiation happens before brace. Sidewinder emphasizes this crush the can moment as there being a solid heel down pressure brace moment. Almost exclusively though, hip rotation begins before even the ball of the lead foot plants.

It's almost like you are seeing what I am showing and trying to adjust the goalposts to make the brace happen before it actually happens. Take my baseball swing GIF for example- his hips are clearly rotating before his toe even makes solid contact. You can't think his toe is the brace can you?

To me, there is no specific moment of bracing. I quite literally feel a wave of momentum that I am manipulating, and it is most assuredly a lateral movement to initiate the shift from rear to front foot.

 

[timothy42b]

Shoulders and hip rotating simultaneously frame by frame. https://youtu.be/RkPwHUVInes?t=15

Wish you understood the human anatomy just a tad better so you wouldnt make these impossible arguments which require an alien anatomy. You must understand how frustrating it is to debate with you when you ignore facts.

Hmmm. That's sure what Paul looks like. But don't ball golfers deliberately move the hips before the shoulders rotate? They get more power that way, and also more back injuries. But if you look at Tiger when he's really bombing them his hips snap through well before the shoulders. Compare that to those shots more recently when his back was in trouble and they were rotating simultaneously, and he flipping them into sand traps and struggling.

Stokely talks about wanting hips forward and shoulders back on that recent sidearm video, not rotating simultaneous. So there may be more than one right way to do this.

 

[RandyC]

Hmmm. That's sure what Paul looks like. But don't ball golfers deliberately move the hips before the shoulders rotate? They get more power that way, and also more back injuries. But if you look at Tiger when he's really bombing them his hips snap through well before the shoulders. Compare that to those shots more recently when his back was in trouble and they were rotating simultaneously, and he flipping them into sand traps and struggling.

Stokely talks about wanting hips forward and shoulders back on that recent sidearm video, not rotating simultaneous. So there may be more than one right way to do this.

It is just an illusion. Two handed your stance is bit more open and after a good weight shift shoulders will naturally lag due to the nature of the swing as you are holding the club with your rear arm.

There are probably better videos but this was the first one I found, backhanded 1-arm golf-swing. https://youtu.be/6GY3pS5qU2w?t=53
No noticeable lag in the shoulders.