Trying to get my backhand form to 400ft and beyond

[Dundee]

I got into disc golf in September of last year, and have been pretty consumed with trying to improve my backhand form. I naturally made some progress, as my form was so bad when I first started, but I've hit a wall in the last month or so. It's hard to say what my typical max distance is, as I have a hard time on focusing on one aspect of my throw to fix. However, I feel safe in saying that a good throw with a Teebird3 for me goes about 340ft. I throw a few 370ft shots when I do fieldwork, but they aren't consistent at all.

Here is a link to my most recent fieldwork:
https://youtu.be/1dMzkkBrya4

This is a pretty average/slightly above average throw for me. Probably went 340ft.

List of things I need to work on:

1. My hands are way too high up in the power pocket when I do my x-step. I also need to get rid of the disc twitch thing I do. It all started with me trying to make sure I'm "pouring the coffee." It's been incredibly hard to break.

2. I "reachbach" way too early in my throw. This actually is the hardest thing I've tried to fix and would love some drills to work on it. It's one of those things I feel like I'm not doing, but when I watch the film back, I'm always doing it.

3. I'm not sure, but I think I open up my shoulder way too soon. What do y'all think? Any drills for this?

4. I can't really tell if I'm properly transferring my weight into my plant leg. I don't think I do as I don't sweep my back foot behind me after planting, like SeaBas22 describes in the power of posture video. Should I just keep working on the one leg drill? Kicking the ball? Crushing the can?

That's what I've noticed but would love to hear other thoughts on what I should focus on first.

 

[sidewinder22]

You need to get your body to shift in dynamic alignment/balance to the front leg/heel. You stay on your toes and thrust/tip your upper spine/head over top the front leg. Keep your chin up above your shoulder/s so they can swing freely underneath the centered head.

Crush the Can, Swivel Stairs, One Leg, Turbo Encabulator, Door Frame, Bow and Arrow Drills.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118948

 

[Dundee]

I spent some time working on the one leg drill, but I don't think I'm doing it right. I went out today and almost solely went back to standstills as I felt really out of wack trying to work on shifting my weight into my plant leg.

Link to today's practice:
https://youtu.be/3f0h-8hsNYM

All the standstills I did felt super powerless and it's got to be related to my weight transfer. I'm timing it incorrectly? I can't tell if my weight has shifted onto my back foot.

Should I feel all my weight on my back foot at the start of the throw?

It feels super unnatural to keep all my weight on my back foot and step toward the target with my plant foot. Is that what I'm supposed to be doing or should I have already started shifting my weight at that point? I didn't focus on my "reachback" today, but it's still extremely early.

Lots of questions, but I feel completely lost at the moment.

 

[sidewinder22]

See the previous link I posted about weightshift. Shift first then swing. You are swinging before you shift.

I feel the vast majority of my weight pressure shift to the front foot before the swing starts forward. See KJUSA below.

Kinetic Sequence
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133319

 

[lostDoughnut]

i hope this helps. for me this feeling to get it right is difficult because i feel like i am going to fall away from the teepad when my rear foot picks up. (if im standing still and i pick up my rear leg then i start to fall in the direction that my leg gets picked up, i think thats what my body is used to and needs help overwriting). however, when done correctly (with the momentum of of my body going towards the basket) when the rear foot picks up i dont fall away from the teepad. i dont know if im explaining it correctly but to me there almost feels like i have a pause at the peak of the backswing to then when my rear foot picks up. when the rear leg goes off the ground i feel more weight on my front leg and my body starts to automatically uncoil (or to me it feels this way)

 

[Dundee]

See the previous link I posted about weightshift. Shift first then swing. You are swinging before you shift.

I feel the vast majority of my weight pressure shift to the front foot before the swing starts forward. See KJUSA below.]

I've been really trying to focus on the weight shift during my fieldwork and have varying success. I actually broke 400' for the first time last weekend with a 411" throw. It felt basically effortless and I really felt the timing with my plant foot's heel coming down before I started my swing. No arm movement was felt. It was like my body forced my arm to move once my heel came down and basically "jerked" my upper body around. Unfortunately I didn't film it, but I don't think it would matter as I only recreated it once more. Since then I've been getting a lot of 360-390ft throws with a lot of trash throws mixed in.

I'm going to video myself today and post it this afternoon. However, I wanted to clarify on what the weight shift feels like for the back leg (right for me as I'm a lefty). Are you pushing off your back leg towards the target? I've been doing a lot of reading and have seen some people refer to it as being similar to be riding a skateboard. I've never skateboarded, but after trying to get my back leg off the ground by sweeping it backwards, I could see how it might be how it feels to skateboard.

Also, when your brace leg lands, is the ball of your foot the first part that touches the ground? It looks like in that Kevin Jones image that the inside of his foot has hit the ground first. Currently the ball of my foot hits the ground, and then I "slam" my heel down. Which then causes my upper body to rotate towards the target. A problem I've noticed with slamming my heel down is I will sometimes end up throwing a turnover, just because the weight shifts to my heel and I end up rotating on the back of my feet. Obviously doing something wrong there, but I haven't read anyone having a similar issue. It's not a disc issue because I definitely don't have the power to be turning over a Wraith

 

[sidewinder22]

Correct. If you are getting more speed it will turn the disc more. Throw it with more hyzer.

 

[Dundee]

Correct. If you are getting more speed it will turn the disc more. Throw it with more hyzer.

I didn't get any footage yesterday; however, I didn't really see any improvements. Managed to get one out to 420ft, but I'm worried my form isn't actually improving and I'm just flexing my overstable drivers out to these distances.

Today's form: https://youtu.be/s-Fs6GLyBNM

Here is my form from today. This was a 400ft shot. I still feel like I'm starting my "reach back" and rotation too early. Does my brace look any better? I can tell my upper body is still getting ahead of my lower body, but I think my brace is somewhat better. It never feels as strong as it does when I'm going through the motions in my living room without a disc.

 

[sidewinder22]

You can't really brace or swing or rotate properly unless you are shifting in dynamic balance.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134415

 

[RistoS]

Does my brace look any better? I can tell my upper body is still getting ahead of my lower body, but I think my brace is somewhat better. It never feels as strong as it does when I'm going through the motions in my living room without a disc.

Unfortunately no, you're not really braced. What you're doing in the latest clip with your shoulder shouldn't happen when you got the timing and brace right. Shoulders should rotate, not pull.

I feel like your X-step is messing up a lot here. It goes too far beyond your left foot, and as a result your right leg is pointed away from the target more than it should be, making it hard to shift your center of gravity forward.

 

[Brychanus]

I don't want you to suffer the "too many cooks" problem, but based on how you are moving I would spend more time with Crush the Can out of Hershyzer. You need to get the feel for a "freefall" and learn to trust the weight shift forward and down into the plant.

You might try doing Crushing the Can nearly completely vertically like SW22 does in some of his vids, then swinging. Your body needs to learn that falling with your eyes away from the target is a good thing. It's this "Trust Fall" that our brains really want to resist. But you need it.

The size of the "Trust Fall" will eventually be proportional to the size of the plant stride/desired power of the throw. But you probably need to exaggerate it a lot until your body finds it natural.

 

[Dundee]

I don't want you to suffer the "too many cooks" problem, but based on how you are moving I would spend more time with Crush the Can out of Hershyzer. You need to get the feel for a "freefall" and learn to trust the weight shift forward and down into the plant.

You might try doing Crushing the Can nearly completely vertically like SW22 does in some of his vids, then swinging. Your body needs to learn that falling with your eyes away from the target is a good thing. It's this "Trust Fall" that our brains really want to resist. But you need it.

The size of the "Trust Fall" will eventually be proportional to the size of the plant stride/desired power of the throw. But you probably need to exaggerate it a lot until your body finds it natural.

I've never heard the stride into the plant foot described as a trust fall. I've never thought of it as falling into my plant foot. Is that an exaggeration? I sometimes find myself struggling to realize if I should be emulating the motion these drills teach, or if they are just drills to get a feel of what you should be doing. That may not make sense, kind of hard for me to explain.

Which video is the Crush the Can out of Hershyzer? I've watched these two videos before, but not sure if that's what you're referring to.

https://youtu.be/BuvujcEMLxs

https://youtu.be/Ns1utgTifso

I really suck at doing crush the can. I can't get my heel high enough that it's above the top of the can. Am I thinking about this drill wrong? I need more cans for this drill lol

 

[Brychanus]

I've never heard the stride into the plant foot described as a trust fall. I've never thought of it as falling into my plant foot. Is that an exaggeration? I sometimes find myself struggling to realize if I should be emulating the motion these drills teach, or if they are just drills to get a feel of what you should be doing. That may not make sense, kind of hard for me to explain.

Which video is the Crush the Can out of Hershyzer? I've watched these two videos before, but not sure if that's what you're referring to.

https://youtu.be/BuvujcEMLxs

https://youtu.be/Ns1utgTifso

I really suck at doing crush the can. I can't get my heel high enough that it's above the top of the can. Am I thinking about this drill wrong? I need more cans for this drill lol

It's an exaggeration that is also true - it doesn't seem as much like a "fall" when it becomes fluid off of the rear/drive foot in your form. But you are indeed "falling" in the same way that you do when walking forward and your weight tips forward into the next step. Shorter steps will yield shorter falls. In walking and the DG backhand, you don't ever want to feel like your feet are "disconnected" - it's a fluid & quick transition from the drive step into this little plant "fall".

SW22's drills isolate & sometimes exaggerate those mechanics because you need to "overshoot" it a bit so your body can recognize it as different and integrate it. But most of his drills put you into the correct posture for that range of motion for that specific mechanic. So there I'd say "trust the drill" - in my case it has never steered me wrong once I get my body to do the right thing (i.e., the drill). I am always surprised at how "big" the change looks and feels in the drill but how small it looks in my form.

For Crush the Can, the key is getting the body's weight to completely lead the swing. So I'm not sure what is making it tricky for your heel to get atop the can, but you can even try hopping almost vertically to on top of it and then swinging after the weight settles like SW22 shows in a couple vids. The point in the end is that most of us tend to have some of our weight "trailing" the swing and don't let gravity do enough work. Instead, we need to learn to get as much of the weight leading the swing as possible while being in balance. You also need to learn to surrender yourself - while in balance - to gravity.

When your plant stride is longer on a bigger shot it's like a bigger "trust fall", but it's still connected to & quick off the rear foot. That's part of why it can be so hard to learn - if your posture is just a little bit off, you can still stride into the plant quickly, but botch the weight shift. If you botch the weight shift, your body can't uncoil from the ground up for maximal acceleration. That's part of why so many players get so little power from their x-step. It's drastically different when you start to get it. It feels awesome.

Right now, it looks like your plant leg is really trying to prevent the sensation of falling. It's functioning like a very firm pole saying "gravity will have no role here." But you need to get that gravity to power the swing. Tom Petty tells us what to do instead.

Here's the time stamp I'm suggesting from Hershyzer part 2:
https://youtu.be/Ns1utgTifso?t=125

As a point of empathy, I've been at this daily for 6 months and it wasn't until the last couple weeks that my weight shift really started functioning better. I had to get a lot of other mechanics/posture stuff worked out first, and spending a lot of time with standstills continues to be worth it. My x-step improves bit by bit now even when I don't practice it.

 

[Dundee]

It's an exaggeration that is also true - it doesn't seem as much like a "fall" when it becomes fluid off of the rear/drive foot in your form. But you are indeed "falling" in the same way that you do when walking forward and your weight tips forward into the next step. Shorter steps will yield shorter falls. In walking and the DG backhand, you don't ever want to feel like your feet are "disconnected" - it's a fluid & quick transition from the drive step into this little plant "fall".

SW22's drills isolate & sometimes exaggerate those mechanics because you need to "overshoot" it a bit so your body can recognize it as different and integrate it. But most of his drills put you into the correct posture for that range of motion for that specific mechanic. So there I'd say "trust the drill" - in my case it has never steered me wrong once I get my body to do the right thing (i.e., the drill). I am always surprised at how "big" the change looks and feels in the drill but how small it looks in my form.

For Crush the Can, the key is getting the body's weight to completely lead the swing. So I'm not sure what is making it tricky for your heel to get atop the can, but you can even try hopping almost vertically to on top of it and then swinging after the weight settles like SW22 shows in a couple vids. The point in the end is that most of us tend to have some of our weight "trailing" the swing and don't let gravity do enough work. Instead, we need to learn to get as much of the weight leading the swing as possible while being in balance. You also need to learn to surrender yourself - while in balance - to gravity.

When your plant stride is longer on a bigger shot it's like a bigger "trust fall", but it's still connected to & quick off the rear foot. That's part of why it can be so hard to learn - if your posture is just a little bit off, you can still stride into the plant quickly, but botch the weight shift. If you botch the weight shift, your body can't uncoil from the ground up for maximal acceleration. That's part of why so many players get so little power from their x-step. It's drastically different when you start to get it. It feels awesome.

Right now, it looks like your plant leg is really trying to prevent the sensation of falling. It's functioning like a very firm pole saying "gravity will have no role here." But you need to get that gravity to power the swing. Tom Petty tells us what to do instead.

Here's the time stamp I'm suggesting from Hershyzer part 2:
https://youtu.be/Ns1utgTifso?t=125

As a point of empathy, I've been at this daily for 6 months and it wasn't until the last couple weeks that my weight shift really started functioning better. I had to get a lot of other mechanics/posture stuff worked out first, and spending a lot of time with standstills continues to be worth it. My x-step improves bit by bit now even when I don't practice it.

Hmm I'm going to have to rewire my brain because it has never felt like I'm falling in any of my throws. Even my best throws have never had that feeling.

I do several loopghost and sidewinder drills indoors and it feels like I'm bracing, and I especially notice it (at least what I think is bracing) when doing standstills. However, whenever I grab a disc and introduce an x-step to the equation, everything gets mucked up.

Before I get into the Hershyzer drill, I guess it would be better to make sure I'm even doing the Crush the Can drill right. Link to video: https://youtu.be/sbl3Q63fObI

This what I mean by not being able to do the crush the can drill. Every time the can goes flying and I'm not really sure what's going wrong. Is my weight transfer incorrect? Is it as simple as sidewinder wearing hiking boots and I'm wearing running shoes with a smooth-ish tread? Not enough force coming down on the can? I have no idea and it's extremely frustrating as I don't see what SW is doing that I'm not doing.

For the Hershyzer drill, I feel like I'm "bracing" if I focus more on pushing off my rear leg into the plant leg instead of consciously thinking about falling. I notice my rear foot gliding backwards like SW mentions in several of his other videos, and it feels natural. Maybe it's just people describing the same action differently and for some reason, different explanations make more sense for some people as opposed to other explanations. On the other hand, I don't know where to start in thinking about "falling". I thought pitchers where pushing off the mound into the pitch, not fall off the mound by gravity.

Time-stamped Crush the Can Part 2.1: https://youtu.be/BuvujcEMLxs?t=55

But if you watch this portion of the Crush the Can video, SW talks about turning too early which causes you lean over the top of your foot. And I'm doing that in every single one of my form videos. It feels so less powerful. It seems like I should be moving "backwards" into the throw, while pushing off my rear leg.


Interesting you describe my plant leg as a pole, because that's exactly how I think of what a brace is doing. My forward momentum out of the x-step is being stopped by my brace leg, so that it causes my upper body to release that energy that was built up in the run up and x-step. But I'm obviously not doing a good job at that, or I'd throw 400ft at minimum on all my distance throws.

 

[Brychanus]

It's possible to brace in a few ways. You have one and are swinging behind it, but it is like your leg is "posted" already when you plant. Instead, you want to drop into the plant with a bit of squat (Hershyzer) and "post up" like a pogo resisting collapse and springing back against the ground. The more you add the gravity assist/compression, the more you can rebound/decompress. It is this action that clears the front hip and accelerates the swing, uncoiling from the ground up (Tilted Spiral by seabas22).

In your Can Crush, you look too focused on the toe heel action and like you're trying to rotate into it. You are not fully dropping your weight straight down on top of it when shifting from behind you. That's why it squirts out beside you- your weight is coming in at a shallow angle and not fully committed over top of it. Try hopping straight from above, still landing toe-heel. Don't worry about rotation- it will happen on its own when the mechanics improve.

I would attempt the Crush as suggested above first and we can see how it looks.

To improve the "shift from behind",
I needed to do different drills hundreds of times over 1" to hammer it into my form. The Crush will get your weight dropping, then the Hershyzer and Clement drill here will help you get it coming into the swing from the correct posture:

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, watch your rear hip spin out in your crush the can. You should also get this feeling in Swivel Stairs, don't need the can, but you can like Crush the Can part 2.

 

[Dundee]

Yeah, watch your rear hip spin out in your crush the can. You should also get this feeling in Swivel Stairs, don't need the can, but you can like Crush the Can part 2.

I need to practice the swivel stairs more. I've tried it couple times and haven't really felt anything, so I must be doing something wrong.

Luckily I suck at crushing the can, so I get a good 30 attempts out of every can. Here's my latest attempt. Bad attempt is the can going sliding like usual. The Maybe Better attempt is after numerous bad attempts, so the integrity of the can has weaken severely. Also my toes are coming off the ground slightly, but it's been extremely hard trying to crush the can while keeping them on the ground. Is that defeating the purpose of this drill?

Bad: https://youtu.be/pTbqBiiMgqs
Maybe Better?: https://youtu.be/jxM1bNveB7s

Also, I think the can was just so weakened from previous attempts that I was able to crush it without needing to properly do the drill. Agree?

When doing this drill, I have been trying to think about keeping my rear hip "back". Is that correct? What else should I be thinking about?

Also thanks for watching some dude try (and fail) to crush a can in the kitchen lol

 

[Brychanus]

Also thanks for watching some dude try (and fail) to crush a can in the kitchen lol

Lmao-Dude, have you seen any of the other form threads around here? We're all a little nuts!

I think you've inched in the right direction but there's still too much rotation and not enough "fall".

I want to see you aim the butt more toward the can as you load up, then fall more back onto it from over top of it. It's more like the posture you use when you're sitting down into a chair. A controlled fall backwards.

We're trying to get you into the same motion as Swivel Stairs, ending with the heavy can crush in the plant.

 

[sidewinder22]

I need to practice the swivel stairs more. I've tried it couple times and haven't really felt anything, so I must be doing something wrong.

Luckily I suck at crushing the can, so I get a good 30 attempts out of every can. Here's my latest attempt. Bad attempt is the can going sliding like usual. The Maybe Better attempt is after numerous bad attempts, so the integrity of the can has weaken severely. Also my toes are coming off the ground slightly, but it's been extremely hard trying to crush the can while keeping them on the ground. Is that defeating the purpose of this drill?

Bad: https://youtu.be/pTbqBiiMgqs
Maybe Better?: https://youtu.be/jxM1bNveB7s

Also, I think the can was just so weakened from previous attempts that I was able to crush it without needing to properly do the drill. Agree?

When doing this drill, I have been trying to think about keeping my rear hip "back". Is that correct? What else should I be thinking about?

Also thanks for watching some dude try (and fail) to crush a can in the kitchen lol

Your front foot/leg is rotating open into the plant.

Rotate backwards into the rear hip into the plant.

It is ok if the toes don't remain on the ground, you can pre-crush the can if it's too tall for you, or use something shorter like a cigarette pack or pretend there is a bug.

 

[Dundee]

Your front foot/leg is rotating open into the plant.

Rotate backwards into the rear hip into the plant.

It is ok if the toes don't remain on the ground, you can pre-crush the can if it's too tall for you, or use something shorter like a cigarette pack or pretend there is a bug.

I don't feel like a 12oz can should be too tall for me to crush. I'm 5' 7" and wear a size 11 shoe... I have temporarily stopped trying to crush the can and instead just trying to get the movement down. Does this look correct?

Link: https://youtu.be/omHux_3tDRc

I feel like I'm keeping my rear hip back when I do this, but I'm not sure at this point. Pretty frustrating how I can't figure this out. I tried doing what I did in the linked video when I threw today, but I could never get myself into that position. My upper body is still leaning towards the target.