Upper arm to body angle question / thoughts

[pmpstr]

I'm going to try and tame the length of this post, but it's not gonna happen... so here goes.

So I've noticed a phenomenon similar to the "moving around the disc" phenomenon (which I consider to be such because it is simply a product of good form). I came across a video not too long ago (sorry for no link, I cannot find it ATM), and the young gentleman was talking about quite a few key points about BH drive form. At one point he mentioned a "90 degree angle between your upper arm and your chest". I haven't found much more information out there regarding this, but I thought it was very interesting. For me, no matter how much technique I had learned (mostly from these forums and associated videos, as well as heavydisc.com info, which is awesome stuff), I could not seem to find consistent aiming accuracy. Sometimes early release, sometimes late release, rarely a straight release. It was mainly an issue with inconsistent timing with my shoulders / arms / torso. Too anxious with the arms and it came out early. Too anxious with the shoulders and I was way open releasing to the right (RHBH).

So I started developing this "90 degree theory" based on that one key point. You see, I also play ball golf, and there is this little "test" you can do where you can easily learn what the top of your backswing should look and feel like. Grip the club, bring the club shaft up on top of your back shoulder, straighten your lead arm (allowing the club to come up off your shoulder as a result), and twist your hips / torso back. Voila! That's where your backswing should be. This also exposes a VERY interesting fact, that although it is called a "backswing", your arms are really only moving up and down in sync with your twisting body (always keeping your arms connected to your upper body), and not actually "swinging" at all.

This all lead me to think about the disc golf throw in the same way with this "90 degree theory". Plant foot angled about 45 degrees away from target, which points the hips away from the target. Hold the disc in normal grip, make a 90 degree angle at elbow, also make 90 degree angle between upper arm and chest. Twist the torso back, now unbend the elbow. Bam. Ideal reachback. Where am I going with this? Follow me for a minute... Firstly, this exposed the same thing about the arm as did the ball golf exercise; the arm only really bends and straightens at the elbow (this is not including followthrough, only form up until the hit). Great, so now what? I attempted to work the phenomenon into my form, focusing ONLY on keeping my arm close to a 90 degree angle with my chest, and ONLY bending / unbending my arm at the elbow (this sounds rigid, but it really wasn't. I was not "forcing" my body into these positions, more just focusing my timing to ensure it). The result ends up being this series:

~ Elbow bent 90, arm 90 to chest (keeping it this way up until I start my reachback)
~ As I plant at a 45, twisting at the waist back away from the target, the upper arm maintains the 90 to the chest, while the elbow straightens in sync with the twist back (this can also be delayed, but more no that later... maybe...)
~ pull into the chest (back to the starting postion) by untwisting the hips / pulling the front shoulder forward in sync with bending the elbow back in, maintaining 90 between upper arm and chest (this brings the disc in close to create a tight rotation)
~ Keeping the 90 in place for arm / chest, extend the forearm out once elbow reaches its peak (more on this later as well, but this created that picture perfect release point that you see in the slow-mo videos of the pros. Releasing the disc while, you guessed it, the upper arm is at 90 degrees to the chest. This part blew my mind a bit too)
~ Follow through and forget everything you know about 90 degrees (basically allow the body to naturally finish so as to not put undue stress on your body)

The result? After some playing around with it, I was hitting some dead straight lines that I just wasn't able to do before. The same week I learned this technique and went out to the field and practiced it, I played a round with friends at a course we all hadn't played before. It was hands down my best round of disc golf I'd ever played. I live on the east coast, so we play ALL wooded courses, so accuracy is a must. My friends were calling me a machine because I was just hitting every line I needed. Even parking a few holes within 10' (which isn't all that common for me usually. This is only my 2nd year playing). I've never seen accuracy out of myself like this before.

I've said ALL of that not just to maybe share this technique with others in the hopes that I can help another up-and-comer get over the accuracy plateau, but also to reach out to the vets on this forum to get your insight on my findings. There are some lead up questions I have as well, but I will (hopefully) bring those up organically as this conversation progresses (I imagine the direction I think it'll go, and my followup questions should get covered eventually).

Thanks in advance for any feedback. I am CONSTANTLY working on my form (be it drives, upshots or putting). I do field work at least once a week, and play 1-2 times a week (if I didn't have responsibilities I swear you'd have to tear me away from the course). Oh and if you haven't noticed, I am infatuated with sports technique / body physics... though I am NO expert.

 

[sidewinder22]

1. At 45 degrees your plant foot sounds like it is pointed too targetward/open, I keep my plant foot closer to perpendicular / 90 degrees to apex of the target line.

2. Throwing with a wide upper arm angle(around 120 degrees) like Nate Doss, Barry Shultz and KJ Nybo took my throw to the next level. The elbow is always forward/out/leading. When you start from the ground up, the torso rotates and the arm lags behind collapsing the angle, you want to resist collapsing too close to 90 and it might eventually at release.

3. Most players don't turn their hips/shoulders nearly back far enough to get a wide angle upper arm with the arm/disc straight back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvGudQYfjD8#t=3m50s

 

[NathanNoodleArm]

Throwing with a wide upper arm angle(around 120 degrees) like Nate Doss, Barry Shultz and KJ Nybo took my throw to the next level. The elbow is always forward/out/leading. When you start from the ground up, the torso rotates and the arm lags behind collapsing the angle, you want to resist collapsing too close to 90 and it might eventually at release.

For clarification you're saying start with an upper arm angle of 120 degrees so that when the arm lags hopefully it winds up around 90 degrees?

This is my form a few months ago.

I clearly have a problem with this and was trying to maintain that 90 degree angle in my fieldwork this weekend...without lots of success I might add.

 

[sidewinder22]

For clarification you're saying start with an upper arm angle of 120 degrees so that when the arm lags hopefully it winds up around 90 degrees?

I clearly have a problem with this and was trying to maintain that 90 degree angle in my fieldwork this weekend...without lots of success I might add.

Yep, your arm is closer to 60 degrees there aka hugging yourself.

 

[Jimbat]

Nathan is certainly hugging himself in the picture, but in his case I don't think the solution is to go straight to a wide-rail throw. Instead I think he would benefit more from concentrating on turning his shoulders further back as opposed to just reaching back with the disc. Schusterick has a part in his clinic (pretty sure) where he discusses this sort of error. I believe his solution is to envision using your off-arm's shoulder in order to determine length of, and initiate the reachback. That way you really are reaching back with your torso, and not just kinda shoving the disc in a backwards direction.

To counteract difficulty of getting the elbow out front smoothly, without muscling, and ahead of the weight of the throw; I had to think of the throw as swinging my humerus by pushing with my rear foot, once balanced on my brace.

Certainly it is easier to get the elbow out front with the wide rail, but why nuke the entire arm position, when he could just load even further into the back foot before he shifts to the front leg.

 

[sidewinder22]

Nathan is certainly hugging himself in the picture, but in his case I don't think the solution is to go straight to a wide-rail throw. Instead I think he would benefit more from concentrating on turning his shoulders further back as opposed to just reaching back with the disc. Schusterick has a part in his clinic (pretty sure) where he discusses this sort of error. I believe his solution is to envision using your off-arm's shoulder in order to determine length of, and initiate the reachback. That way you really are reaching back with your torso, and not just kinda shoving the disc in a backwards direction.

To counteract difficulty of getting the elbow out front smoothly, without muscling, and ahead of the weight of the throw; I had to think of the throw as swinging my humerus by pushing with my rear foot, once balanced on my brace.

Certainly it is easier to get the elbow out front with the wide rail, but why nuke the entire arm position, when he could just load even further into the back foot before he shifts to the front leg.

Read my first post under "#3" where I say most players don't turn their shoulders back far enough and the link in post takes you directly to where I say the same thing in the Door Frame Drill as Will says.

"Wide Rail" is all relative and most all the top players use it although it can vary some especially with different body types. Will reaches back with a very wide arm angle which is "wide rail" even though the arm and disc are straight back - which is the same position as the Door Frame Drill. Will just typically turns his shoulders/body further back than Doss and has faster rotational speed so his arm collapses more going forward and also has longer arms and narrower shoulders. Doss typically only gets into the actual Door Frame Drill with the arm/disc straight back when going for big distance and he turns his shoulders/body further back.

 

[pmpstr]

Yes! sidewinder, you've touched on my first followup point that i was hoping would come up. The wide rail. In doing the "90 degree" thing, I did notice that doing so prevents me from getting the disc to my right pec (just given how the angles line up). I realize that isn't ideal, but I think this is a stepping stone to getting there. It's kinda like in ball golf, where you learn the basic form first (at least in my opinion), and THEN you start tweaking that for more distance by playing around with timing (creating more lag and whip effects). I see a lot of top players may have that 90 degree bend at certain points during their throws, they often also abandon it slightly at other times in favor of that lag. Lagging the arm at reachback can slightly close that 90 degree bend, while getting the disc to the front pec opens the angle beyond 90 degrees. But there still seems to be "checkpoints" at 90 degrees when at the peak of the reachback (save for wide railers), as well as the near 90 degree bend at release.

Now, on to what I REALLY noticed about wide rail while incorporating it into the 90 degree theory. As I said, 90 degree bend in the middle of of the throw puts the disc closer to your back pec than your front. I believe once big advantage with wide rail is that you're actually sorta mimicking the effects of the "maintain 90 deg." thought process, but instead you are maintaining a wider angle, which in turn means you are more easily able to return the disc to your FRONT pec (wide angle at start with disc against front pec, maintain wide angle on reachback ((wide rail)), maintain wide angle back to front pec, and... well... this is where i get a bit caught up... Try to get to 90 degree angle release? Maintain wide angle at release? This I'm not sure about.

I do remember maybe UniHyzerBomber mentioning in a video perhaps that he was having more success getting the disc further forward to his front pec when using wide-rail. His theory had more to do with the physics of the disc's momentum changing and making the disc momentarily weightless (thus allowing you to hold onto the disc longer). I believe he was right about that, but I don't think that was the FULL reason. I think it also had to do with the reasoning explained above. It's much easier to get the disc back to front pec when you're not fighting to open that angle from 90 to... let's call it 110-120 degrees? I think with your body moving in the same direction, your arm is fighting to get there faster. Again, just another theory. I've played around with wide-rail. Jury is still out for me. To counterpoint the pro I've expanded on, the con would be that you are taking the disc off of that straight line, which will take a lot of practice and discipline to learn to put the disc back on the correct line.

This brings up another follow-up question for me. WHEN should the arm have the disc sitting back against the chest? At what point in the rotation? Adhering strictly to 90 degree rule, it pretty naturally return to the chest about in time with being in the power position (as your mass is centered, in the "middle" of the throw). Is this proper timing? Or should the disc be returning to the chest earlier? I can't imagine the answer would be any LATER than what the 90 degree yields. So for me it's just a question of how soon...

Thanks for all the conversation, it's some really great insight!

 

[pmpstr]

One small clarification also... I think I mislead you on my plant foot. I'm planting with my foot at 45 degrees AWAY from the target, beyond perpendicular. So I should have maybe said 135 degrees from straight. I will try and get some video footage of my form posted soon to maybe shed some light on what I'm talking about, but unfortunately the setup i have in my garage is a bit tight for wide camera angles. I'll see if I can set up something out back.

 

[pmpstr]

One last observation. I'm noticing in the Nate Doss video that he's essentially doing at 120 degrees what I'm trying to do at 90 degrees (he stays pretty close to the same angle throughout his throw).

 

[pmpstr]

Had a chance to take some video. I have the same video in slow motion if needed. Any critique welcome as well!

https://youtu.be/cluLjI5DbzI

 

[sidewinder22]

I see a lot of top players may have that 90 degree bend at certain points during their throws, they often also abandon it slightly at other times in favor of that lag. Lagging the arm at reachback can slightly close that 90 degree bend, while getting the disc to the front pec opens the angle beyond 90 degrees. But there still seems to be "checkpoints" at 90 degrees when at the peak of the reachback (save for wide railers), as well as the near 90 degree bend at release.

90 degrees early in the swing typically requires fast arm speed and lanky body type. Trying to learn from 90 is like giving your 16yr old kid a race car to learn to drive.

Now, on to what I REALLY noticed about wide rail while incorporating it into the 90 degree theory. As I said, 90 degree bend in the middle of of the throw puts the disc closer to your back pec than your front. I believe once big advantage with wide rail is that you're actually sorta mimicking the effects of the "maintain 90 deg." thought process, but instead you are maintaining a wider angle, which in turn means you are more easily able to return the disc to your FRONT pec (wide angle at start with disc against front pec, maintain wide angle on reachback ((wide rail)), maintain wide angle back to front pec, and... well... this is where i get a bit caught up... Try to get to 90 degree angle release? Maintain wide angle at release? This I'm not sure about.

I do remember maybe UniHyzerBomber mentioning in a video perhaps that he was having more success getting the disc further forward to his front pec when using wide-rail. His theory had more to do with the physics of the disc's momentum changing and making the disc momentarily weightless (thus allowing you to hold onto the disc longer). I believe he was right about that, but I don't think that was the FULL reason. I think it also had to do with the reasoning explained above. It's much easier to get the disc back to front pec when you're not fighting to open that angle from 90 to... let's call it 110-120 degrees? I think with your body moving in the same direction, your arm is fighting to get there faster. Again, just another theory. I've played around with wide-rail. Jury is still out for me. To counterpoint the pro I've expanded on, the con would be that you are taking the disc off of that straight line, which will take a lot of practice and discipline to learn to put the disc back on the correct line.

This brings up another follow-up question for me. WHEN should the arm have the disc sitting back against the chest? At what point in the rotation? Adhering strictly to 90 degree rule, it pretty naturally return to the chest about in time with being in the power position (as your mass is centered, in the "middle" of the throw). Is this proper timing? Or should the disc be returning to the chest earlier? I can't imagine the answer would be any LATER than what the 90 degree yields. So for me it's just a question of how soon...

Arm speed dictates where the disc comes through close to your chest, faster = closer to left pec. Your arm should swing/extend wide through impact. It's all about creating space(getting your body out of the way) for the disc to swing through and creating leverage on the disc.

Wide arm release by the current World Record holder and former Big D Champion:

 

[sidewinder22]

One small clarification also... I think I mislead you on my plant foot. I'm planting with my foot at 45 degrees AWAY from the target

If your video is from the side of the tee I would agree you are planting your front foot only 45 degrees away from the target which is way too open.

 

[AByrd]

If your video is from the side of the tee I would agree you are planting your front foot only 45 degrees away from the target which is way too open.

Confused here. If the foot is planted 45 degrees away from the target it would look like \ with the target to the right. Seems like that would be considered closed. Just need clarification. Thanks.

 

[iacas]

Confused here. If the foot is planted 45 degrees away from the target it would look like \ with the target to the right. Seems like that would be considered closed. Just need clarification. Thanks.

He means 45° from the toes pointing straight at the target. What you're thinking of as "square" he would say 90° or perpendicular.

 

[AByrd]

My brain wasn't working. Thanks.

 

[pmpstr]

This wasn't the best video I could've done. I kinda rushed it (subpar angle, no warm up, pretty damn cold, and focusing on trying to show the shoulder angle and kinda phoning it in with the rest of my form). I should say that I am TRYING to have my foot planted 45 degrees past perpendicular to the target. I think I achieved that on a couple throws (again the angle of the video is slightly deceiving). I am also a total work in progress, so what I THINK I'm doing and what I'm ACTUALLY doing may not be totally in sync. I appreciate the feedback!

 

[sidewinder22]

^^^ Right, toes pointed at target would be 0 degrees, foot perpendicular to target would be 90 degrees.

The red line shows the stance, KJ's stance is closed so the rear toes are about inline to the front heel, while the OP's stance is neutral-open with toes about inline toes. This kills your ability to create space to swing straight through(getting your body out of the way) and typically have to "round" your swing off around your body. Your stance alignment on the pad will vary depending on your shot, for pure hyzers your apex is out to the right so the stance will appear open. For anhyzers/rollers and monster hyzer flips the stance will appear more closed because the apex is out to the left.

We can also see KJ's front foot/leg turned further back slightly past 90 and the shoulder is able to swing from behind his center and arm is wide, so his swing is going to be longer and better leveraged.

 

[pmpstr]

Whoa... I don't think I've ever had a more clear understanding of the closed stance than this... if it weren't pitch black and 35 degrees out I'd go try it out right now. You've got me intrigued my good sir! I will most definitely be out practicing that tomorrow. I've tried it before, but only when I had a very limited understanding of proper form. I'll report back tomorrow! Thank you for the awesome insight btw

 

[timothy42b]

checking my understanding of angle

Just want to check that I'm understanding this.

Draw a line from back shoulder to front shoulder to target, I'll call it shoulder line. If right arm were pointed at the target that would be 180 degrees, if flat on the chest pointing back that would be zero degrees. Of course that line turns during the throw.

1. So, on the reach back, the upper arm should never be less than 90 degrees to that line, and more is better? Looks like Will is close to 180 but he has insane flexibility.

1a. Throwing elbow first does not mean changing that fixed upper arm to shoulder arm angle - the elbow is already in place, but the shoulders turn? The angle will increase after the hit, during the follow through.

1b. The angle of lower arm to upper arm will change during the throw, from almost straight at reachback to almost closed just before the hit?

2. The distance of the reachback is a combination of HUB's back hip moving, plus the shoulder line twisting with respect to the hip line. But it does not include the upper arm angle decreasing. (I only throw standstill)

3. There can also be movement of the upper arm in the vertical plane.

 

[sidewinder22]

Just want to check that I'm understanding this.

Draw a line from back shoulder to front shoulder to target, I'll call it shoulder line. If right arm were pointed at the target that would be 180 degrees, if flat on the chest pointing back that would be zero degrees. Of course that line turns during the throw.

1. So, on the reach back, the upper arm should never be less than 90 degrees to that line, and more is better? Looks like Will is close to 180 but he has insane flexibility.

1a. Throwing elbow first does not mean changing that fixed upper arm to shoulder arm angle - the elbow is already in place, but the shoulders turn? The angle will increase after the hit, during the follow through.

1b. The angle of lower arm to upper arm will change during the throw, from almost straight at reachback to almost closed just before the hit?

2. The distance of the reachback is a combination of HUB's back hip moving, plus the shoulder line twisting with respect to the hip line. But it does not include the upper arm angle decreasing. (I only throw standstill)

3. There can also be movement of the upper arm in the vertical plane.

1. Typically yes, it's a longer swing.

1a. It means you have either maintained or actually brought the elbow forward so the upper arm angle is greater 90 to the shoulder line.

1b. Not sure what you mean by almost closed.

2. Not sure what you asking.

3. There can be although typically not intentional.