USDGC "Hazard" Rules - Meter Relief Allowed if "Safe"?

[klay]

Question regarding the yellow rope or "hazard" areas at USDGC.

We know that if you cross the yellow rope you play it as it lies but take a stroke penalty.

However, what happens if you land safe but within a meter of the yellow line? Do you receive the meter relief like a normal OB line or do you take a stance at the original lie (with the ability to have contact points in the "hazard"?

We're using this rule in an upcoming tournament and need to know how this would play out. Thanks!

 

[teemkey]

From the (draft) Caddy Book

2. Hazards are in-bounds penalty areas. Discs
landing in a Hazard may be played from where
the disc came to rest, or from the original lie, with
a one-throw penalty. (For tee throws, the decision
must be made before leaving the teeing area.)
Hazard ropes and stakes are casual obstacles. Relief
limited to relocating to the nearest lie which is no
closer to the target, is on the line of play, and is not
more than ve meters from the original lie. The
Hazard line is part of the Hazard.

 

[dusty5150]

.. or do you take a stance at the original lie (with the ability to have contact points in the "hazard"?

that

 

[cjdiscgolf]

We're using this rule in an upcoming tournament and need to know how this would play out. Thanks!

:wall::wall::wall:

WHY?!?!?!?

Just b/c USDGC does this doesn't mean your local C tier should as well.

 

[Cgkdisc]

:wall::wall::wall:

WHY?!?!?!?

Just b/c USDGC does this doesn't mean your local C tier should as well.

Because it's better than Throw & Distance plus they got a waiver from the PDGA. (They did, right?)

 

[JC17393]

:wall::wall::wall:

WHY?!?!?!?

Just b/c USDGC does this doesn't mean your local C tier should as well.

Why not? What's wrong with experimentation at any level? The game is still in its relative infancy. Nothing wrong with exploring new ways to design courses/holes to challenge players.

I'm always surprised at the level of close-mindedness many players have when it comes to course design. They don't want to be challenged by new and unfamiliar yet will often be the first to say our courses are too "easy", particularly at the highest levels.

 

[klay]

:wall::wall::wall:

WHY?!?!?!?

Just b/c USDGC does this doesn't mean your local C tier should as well.

One hole, two dry islands about 10m in diameter each in the vicinity of the basket.

The hazard rule in those circles is part of the course ground rules during regular play (leagues, casual) and will carry over into tournament play.

I was pretty certain I knew the ruling on this but, since this is our first tournament as a club, I wanted to make sure we had our information on how to play them solid.

Plus, I think you'd like our "local C- tier". First ever PDGA event in Colorado to use a ball golf course.

If you want to see the hole in question, take a look at our caddy book. Its number 8 at the Hole in the Sky course.

 

[sidewinder22]

One hole, two dry islands about 10m in diameter each in the vicinity of the basket.

The hazard rule in those circles is part of the course ground rules during regular play (leagues, casual) and will carry over into tournament play.

I was pretty certain I knew the ruling on this but, since this is our first tournament as a club, I wanted to make sure we had our information on how to play them solid.

Plus, I think you'd like our "local C- tier". First ever PDGA event in Colorado to use a ball golf course.

If you want to see the hole in question, take a look at our caddy book. Its number 8 at the Hole in the Sky course.

That's an impressive caddy book and event for a C tier.

 

[tom12003]

what happens if you land safe but within a meter of the yellow line? Do you receive the meter relief like a normal OB line or do you take a stance at the original lie (with the ability to have contact points in the "hazard"?

I asked Jonathan Poole (TD of the USDGC) this morning; he didn't have a quick answer about the meter from the string relief and said he(they) needed to clarify the situation.

 

[klay]

I asked Jonathan Poole (TD of the USDGC) this morning; he didn't have a quick answer about the meter from the string relief and said he(they) needed to clarify the situation.

Oh, wow, haha! Didn't think I'd be stumping the TD today.

 

[el siege]

Why do we have hazard rule on this hole?
-Pretty boring piece of land but we are making it as fun as possible with things like islands and hanging baskets.
-We had plenty of nice sized rocks to make the islands visible from the tee box.
-Wanted to do something unique.
-Made the hole more difficult by taking away some easy landing areas/flight paths.

....Then we also built an elevated basket position on it.

So its pure Arcade Golf but its pretty fun.

 

[coupe]

I asked Jonathan Poole (TD of the USDGC) this morning; he didn't have a quick answer about the meter from the string relief and said he(they) needed to clarify the situation.

Unless they revisit and revise the procedure, the answer, as teemkey noted upthread, is already in the draft Caddy Book:

2. Hazards are in-bounds penalty areas. Discs landing in a Hazard may be played from where the disc came to rest, or from the original lie, with a one-throw penalty. (For tee throws, the decision must be made before leaving the teeing area.)
Hazard ropes and stakes are casual obstacles. Relief limited to relocating to the nearest lie which is no closer to the target, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie. The Hazard line is part of the Hazard.

 

[JC17393]

Unless they revisit and revise the procedure, the answer, as teemkey noted upthread, is already in the draft Caddy Book:

I think the question has to do with landing outside the hazard area but within a meter of the line, which isn't clearly addressed by that rule in the caddy book. If it is strictly casual relief that is applicable, then taking casual relief in such a situation (straight back on the LOP) could take the player into the hazard area to get clear of any ropes. Would the player incur a penalty for doing so?

So the question is whether or not the hazard rope line can be treated like an OB line in such a case. With an OB line, the player is entitled to up to a meter of relief from the line with no penalty so as to take a stance that is completely in-bounds. Would/Should the same thing apply when landing outside a hazard area but within a meter of a hazard line? Or do players have to deal with throwing in/near the ropes if they happen to land near them so as to avoid a penalty?

 

[threej21]

It clearly says "Hazards are IN BOUNDS penalty areas" and "Hazard ropes and stakes are casual obstacles"

that should answer all your questions about it shouldn't it JC?

 

[threej21]

I think the question has to do with landing outside the hazard area but within a meter of the line, which isn't clearly addressed by that rule in the caddy book. If it is strictly casual relief that is applicable, then taking casual relief in such a situation (straight back on the LOP) could take the player into the hazard area to get clear of any ropes. Would the player incur a penalty for doing so?
Hazard areas are IN BOUNDS penalty areas

So the question is whether or not the hazard rope line can be treated like an OB line in such a case. Ropes and stakes are casual obstacles With an OB line, the player is entitled to up to a meter of relief from the line with no penalty so as to take a stance that is completely in-bounds. Would/Should the same thing apply when landing outside a hazard area but within a meter of a hazard line? Or do players have to deal with throwing in/near the ropes if they happen to land near them so as to avoid a penalty?Hazard areas are in bounds and Ropes and stakes are casual obstacles

seems clear to me

 

[JC17393]

Considering the TD of the event is quoted upthread as being unsure about the answer to the question, I'd say it's not so clear yet. And insistence that it is clear by citing things that don't actually address the question at hand isn't helping.

Yes, hazard areas are in-bounds as opposed to out-of-bounds. They also carry a one-throw penalty if you land in them, so they're not exactly treated as normal in-bounds areas. Since hazard areas aren't covered by the PDGA rule book, it necessitates clarifying all possible outcomes without assuming anything.

What has not been clearly answered yet is whether or not one can throw from within the hazard without penalty if it is casual relief (from the ropes) that takes the lie into the hazard. If taking a stance in the hazard incurs a penalty, then an alternative to casual relief needs to be explored for throws that land near the hazard ropes but not in the hazard area. The suggested alternative is something similar to the relief granted from OB lines. The solution could certainly be something different.

 

[Cgkdisc]

A hazard is kind of like a zero+ meter penalty area. The area under an above 2-meter penalty canopy is inbounds and you stand below it whether your disc actually landed above 2-meters and was penalized. Point being, there should be no need to adjust your lie whether it's near the hazard line on the non-penalty side and worry whether part of your stance is in the hazard. Hopefully, that will be the result of their USDGC clarification.

 

[tampora]

Yes, hazard areas are in-bounds as opposed to out-of-bounds. ...

What has not been clearly answered yet is whether or not one can throw from within the hazard without penalty if it is casual relief (from the ropes) that takes the lie into the hazard.

Why would there be a penalty? The penalty only applies to when you have a supporting point out of bounds, right? For which, a hazard area admittedly is not.

 

[teemkey]

803.01 B

Casual Obstacles to a Stance: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles that are on or behind the lie: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, people, or any item or area specifically designated by the Director before the round. To obtain relief, the player must remove the obstacle if it is practical to do so. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the target, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie (unless greater casual relief is announced by the Director).

Though not explicitly stated in the rule book, it is generally accepted that casual relief does not incur a penalty.

Consider the case of a puddle within the hazard area: should a player receive a second penalty when taking casual relief from the puddle?

 

[JC17393]

803.01 B



Though not explicitly stated in the rule book, it is generally accepted that casual relief does not incur a penalty.

Consider the case of a puddle within the hazard area: should a player receive a second penalty when taking casual relief from the puddle?

Why is this so hard to grasp for people? The rule book can't really provide the answer here since there is no such thing as a "hazard area" in the PDGA Rules of Play. Cite all the rules you want, but until hazard areas are actually covered by the rule book, the answer really can only come from the TD/designer who created the hazard area ground rule in the first place.

And the question at hand isn't whether or not the casual relief warrants a penalty. It's whether or not moving a lie into (not within) a hazard area warrants a penalty.

Is it only the act of landing in the hazard that invokes the penalty (as Chuck's idea of dealing with the area suggests) or is it the act of having to throw out of the hazard that invokes the penalty (which warrants the question of relief away from the hazard instead of into it)?