Kicking into OB rope during putt

[Cgkdisc]

Player goes OB, marks one meter IB, putts and while putting before releasing the disc, their non-plant foot lifts up contacting the rope identifying the OB line. Presume that is a stance violation receiving a one stroke penalty (802.07A&C) if all of these elements are true?

However, if the disc is released before the kick touches the rope or the rope is not the official OB mark such as at USDGC where the string along the ground is the actual OB line, not the elevated yellow rope, then contact is not a stance violation. Correct?

 

[BillFleming]

I would think it would be like a disc on the line. Is the foot completely OB? The line/string is OB so the foot is touching OB, but not completely OB, so it would be considered in bounds.

But, if the OB line is moved into the OB area, then the foot would be OB.

So, I think the rule would be "depends".

(editted:added) I think the 'depends' is the answer. You CAN stand OB when you are throwing....it's just that you CAN'T be OB when you release the disc. So, the player could have one foot OB (or touching the line) as they make their throw, but the foot would have to be in bounds upon release. The main issue is does the whole foot have to be in bounds or just partially (similar to a disc just needs to be partially in bounds to be good).

 

[flatflip]

Is the cord itself OB or does it simply correspond with a line on the playing surface that you are not allowed to plant behind while throwing? My understanding is that it is the latter. So, yes, correct.

 

[ThrowBot]

Sounds like the rope is a tripping hazard, it should be removed for player safety.

Problem: solved!

 

[BillFleming]

Player goes OB, marks one meter IB, putts and while putting before releasing the disc, their non-plant foot lifts up contacting the rope identifying the OB line. Presume that is a stance violation receiving a one stroke penalty (802.07A&C) if all of these elements are true?

However, if the disc is released before the kick touches the rope or the rope is not the official OB mark such as at USDGC where the string along the ground is the actual OB line, not the elevated yellow rope, then contact is not a stance violation. Correct?

their non-plant foot lifts up

I missed/overlooked that part. "Lifts up" is important.

802.07 Stance. A.3.

Have all supporting points in-bounds.

In your example, all supporting points are in-bounds. The foot that 'lifted up' and contacted the OB rope is no longer a "supporting point".

So, the foot and the player are not OB.

 

[dmoore1998]

This seems like an ok place to ask a similar question I haven't quickly found (i don't play sanctioned tournaments).

If my disc is NOT OB...let's say for the sake of argument I have a quarter inch sliver of disc touching in bounds...so nearly OB, but not OB. 802.07 says that I have these requirements if I use a marker disc...one of them being having all supporting points IB. Since I can't possibly have all my supporting points in a 1/4 inch space...can I simply not use a marker disc, stand behind my disc lying on the ground, and stand OB for my throw?

Are there other options I have? If there's an obvious rule about this please let me know. I didn't see it in "stance" and not sure where else to look.

 

[Steve West]

This seems like an ok place to ask a similar question I haven't quickly found (i don't play sanctioned tournaments).

If my disc is NOT OB...let's say for the sake of argument I have a quarter inch sliver of disc touching in bounds...so nearly OB, but not OB. 802.07 says that I have these requirements if I use a marker disc...one of them being having all supporting points IB. Since I can't possibly have all my supporting points in a 1/4 inch space...can I simply not use a marker disc, stand behind my disc lying on the ground, and stand OB for my throw?

Are there other options I have? If there's an obvious rule about this please let me know. I didn't see it in "stance" and not sure where else to look.

I was going to suggest several ways this rule could be found, but instead, I'll just quote it.

806.02 Out-of-Bounds
E. If the position of the thrown disc is in-bounds and within one meter of an out-of-bounds line, the lie may be relocated to a new lie at any point on a one meter line that extends perpendicularly from that point on the out-of-bounds line and passes through the thrown disc. Alternatively, when the thrown disc is within one meter of a corner, the lie may be relocated on a one meter line that extends from that corner through the thrown disc.

Note this is slightly different than what you do for a disc that is actually out-of-bounds.

 

[BillFleming]

This seems like an ok place to ask a similar question I haven't quickly found (i don't play sanctioned tournaments).

If my disc is NOT OB...let's say for the sake of argument I have a quarter inch sliver of disc touching in bounds...so nearly OB, but not OB. 802.07 says that I have these requirements if I use a marker disc...one of them being having all supporting points IB. Since I can't possibly have all my supporting points in a 1/4 inch space...can I simply not use a marker disc, stand behind my disc lying on the ground, and stand OB for my throw?

Are there other options I have? If there's an obvious rule about this please let me know. I didn't see it in "stance" and not sure where else to look.

No. You must be inbounds upon release and per 802.07.A.1, you must have one supporting point. So you can't release the disc with both feet in the air (like jumping forward out of the OB area). Per 806.02 Out of Bounds D.2. You are allowed a 1 meter relief. So you would mark a spot within one meter away from the spot.

A lie designated by a marker disc placed on the playing surface up to one meter away from the point where the disc was last in-bounds.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I missed/overlooked that part. "Lifts up" is important. 802.07 Stance. A.3. In your example, all supporting points are in-bounds. The foot that 'lifted up' and contacted the OB rope is no longer a "supporting point". So, the foot and the player are not OB.

Let's say the OB line is a fence versus just the elevated rope. Your implication is that the player marking within one meter could be contacting the fence with their foot kicking back into it just before their throw is released?

 

[dmoore1998]

Ok, so to take those 2 answers (thank you by the way)...it says I "may" relocate my lie. That's helpful to know for most cases.

To Bill's point:

"No. You must be inbounds upon release and per 802.07.A.1, you must have one supporting point."

802.07.A.1 starts out with "if the lie has been marked by a marker disc"...but I'm not required to mark the lie with a marker disc. So if I do not mark the lie with a marker disc...I presume pretty much none of 802.07.A.1 applies since the entire rule is predicated off of applying only if the lie is marked with a marker disc.

So is there a rule (or rules) that state I have to be in bounds if I choose not to mark my lie with a marker disc? If I simply choose to play from behind my disc which comes to rest and not use a marker, is there a rule that says I must be in bounds? Or alternatively, is there a rule that if I'm within 1 meter of OB that I "must" use a marker to move closer? I know i "may" move it closer using the 1 meter rule...but must I?

Again, haven't played a sanctioned tourney yet (I mean I have, but not in at least 20 years). Did play a tournament last weekend though which is what made me wonder about this. Ice EVERYWHERE...smooth ice...pretty much all over the course. If I'd been in this position, I certainly would have rather stood OB on a road if my disc were very close, than to stand on a sheet of ice. Or for example, where OB is a road and there is a large slope coming down from that road, I might prefer to stand OB without using a marker so as to be on flat ground.

 

[Future_Primitive]

Ok, so to take those 2 answers (thank you by the way)...it says I "may" relocate my lie. That's helpful to know for most cases.

To Bill's point:

"No. You must be inbounds upon release and per 802.07.A.1, you must have one supporting point."

802.07.A.1 starts out with "if the lie has been marked by a marker disc"...but I'm not required to mark the lie with a marker disc. So if I do not mark the lie with a marker disc...I presume pretty much none of 802.07.A.1 applies since the entire rule is predicated off of applying only if the lie is marked with a marker disc.

So is there a rule (or rules) that state I have to be in bounds if I choose not to mark my lie with a marker disc? If I simply choose to play from behind my disc which comes to rest and not use a marker, is there a rule that says I must be in bounds? Or alternatively, is there a rule that if I'm within 1 meter of OB that I "must" use a marker to move closer? I know i "may" move it closer using the 1 meter rule...but must I?

Again, haven't played a sanctioned tourney yet (I mean I have, but not in at least 20 years). Did play a tournament last weekend though which is what made me wonder about this. Ice EVERYWHERE...smooth ice...pretty much all over the course. If I'd been in this position, I certainly would have rather stood OB on a road if my disc were very close, than to stand on a sheet of ice. Or for example, where OB is a road and there is a large slope coming down from that road, I might prefer to stand OB without using a marker so as to be on flat ground.

You have to be inbounds. You can't throw from OB.

Your thrown disc is the current "marker disc" if you choose not to pick it up and simply play behind it. The "marker disc" simply marks the lie you must play from. Either where your thrown disc has come to rest or if you choose to place a mini disc down and mark behind it. The stance rule sited is correct and never says "mini" which you seem to be implying. It simply states the marker disc which in your case would be the sitting very close to OB.

 

[dmoore1998]

You have to be inbounds. You can't throw from OB.

Your thrown disc is the current "marker disc" if you choose not to pick it up and simply play behind it. The "marker disc" simply marks the lie you must play from. Either where your thrown disc has come to rest or if you choose to place a mini disc down and mark behind it. The stance rule sited is correct and never says "mini" which you seem to be implying. It simply states the marker disc which in your case would be the sitting very close to OB.

That makes sense. I was definitely interpreting "marker disc" to mean "disc I place as a marker". And then trying to compare that scenario with simply choosing to play behind my thrown disc that has come to a rest. If both options are considered a "marker disc" then that clarifies things.

 

[Future_Primitive]

That makes sense. I was definitely interpreting "marker disc" to mean "disc I place as a marker". And then trying to compare that scenario with simply choosing to play behind my thrown disc that has come to a rest. If both options are considered a "marker disc" then that clarifies things.

They make a point of differentiating the two in 802.06 Marking the Lie. :thmbup:

a. The position of a thrown disc on the in-bounds playing surface marks the lie.

b. Alternatively, the player may mark the lie by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface, touching the front of the thrown disc on the line of play. A mini marker disc is a small disc, not used in play, that complies with PDGA Technical Standards for mini marker discs.

 

[zenbot]

Player goes OB, marks one meter IB, putts and while putting before releasing the disc, their non-plant foot lifts up contacting the rope identifying the OB line. Presume that is a stance violation receiving a one stroke penalty (802.07A&C) if all of these elements are true?

However, if the disc is released before the kick touches the rope or the rope is not the official OB mark such as at USDGC where the string along the ground is the actual OB line, not the elevated yellow rope, then contact is not a stance violation. Correct?

Did this question stem from Paige Pierce this morning?

She had an OB and marked her lie from the curb and not the OB rope which was closer to the basket. As a result, her back leg kicked the rope. Had she marked her meter from the rope, I don't think that would have happened.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Did this question stem from Paige Pierce this morning?

She had an OB and marked her lie from the curb and not the OB rope which was closer to the basket. As a result, her back leg kicked the rope. Had she marked her meter from the rope, I don't think that would have happened.

Yes, it did trigger the question but I wasn't sure of the details as I saw it in passing. So, I posed the question under various conditions.

 

[BillFleming]

Let's say the OB line is a fence versus just the elevated rope. Your implication is that the player marking within one meter could be contacting the fence with their foot kicking back into it just before their throw is released?

Two points to consider....
Let's start with 'what is a lie'.
802.05 Lie

A. The lie is the place on the playing surface upon which the player takes a stance in order to throw. The playing surface is a surface, generally the ground, which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance can reasonably be taken. A playing surface may exist above or below another playing surface. If it is unclear whether a surface is a playing surface, the decision is made by the Director or by an Official.

So in that circumstance, is the fence the playing surface and therefore the lie? No.

The second and most important part isn't mentioned in your question. You say their foot kicks back into the OB fence line just before their throw is released. It doesn't matter what happens before the disc is released. What matters is what happens when the disc is released. You can have a foot on the ground OB and as long as the foot is lifted before the disc is released you are good. In your example, if the player's foot touches the OB fence, but then comes off of it as the disc is released, it's not a violation....the foot was not OB when the disc was released.

 

[BillFleming]

That makes sense. I was definitely interpreting "marker disc" to mean "disc I place as a marker". And then trying to compare that scenario with simply choosing to play behind my thrown disc that has come to a rest. If both options are considered a "marker disc" then that clarifies things.

The thing to remember about OB and your throw is that you can't have any part of your stance out of bounds at the time you release the disc.

Let's use this scenario...

your disc landed near an OB line, but isn't OB. You have 1 inch of space between your disc and the OB line. You are also a very athletic and talented person who can easily stand on your tiptoes for a long period of time. You could stand on your toes between the disc and the OB line with no penalty. However, not everyone can do that, so the rules allow you to mark a position up to one meter from the OB line and use that as your lie. Your disc does not have to be OB for you to take the relief. If your stance would cause you to be OB, you can take the relief.

 

[zenbot]

A leg kicking OOB is not the same thing as a leg acting as a supporting point OOB.

 

[zenbot]

Yes, it did trigger the question but I wasn't sure of the details as I saw it in passing. So, I posed the question under various conditions.

It's a good question. I feel that she mis-marked but gained nothing from it and had no supporting points that were out of bounds.

 

[dmoore1998]

The thing to remember about OB and your throw is that you can't have any part of your stance out of bounds at the time you release the disc.

Let's use this scenario...

your disc landed near an OB line, but isn't OB. You have 1 inch of space between your disc and the OB line. You are also a very athletic and talented person who can easily stand on your tiptoes for a long period of time. You could stand on your toes between the disc and the OB line with no penalty. However, not everyone can do that, so the rules allow you to mark a position up to one meter from the OB line and use that as your lie. Your disc does not have to be OB for you to take the relief. If your stance would cause you to be OB, you can take the relief.

The "common thing" I've always been told about OB is "you can't stand OB". And I've known you CAN move in from OB so as to not stand OB. But all that stuff also comes from people who also don't really play sanctioned events...I just wanted to make sure my understanding was clear.

You guys have been a great help with the distinction of "marker disc" which I probably would have continued to misunderstand as "mini marker disc". THanks all!