Kicking into OB rope during putt

[Steve West]

The "common thing" I've always been told about OB is "you can't stand OB". And I've known you CAN move in from OB so as to not stand OB. But all that stuff also comes from people who also don't really play sanctioned events...I just wanted to make sure my understanding was clear.

You guys have been a great help with the distinction of "marker disc" which I probably would have continued to misunderstand as "mini marker disc". THanks all!

The lie has not "been marked by a marker disc" when the lie is a tee pad, or tee-pad like drop zone.

Which means a tee pad can be partially or completely OB and you can still take a legal stance on it when your lie IS the tee pad. The first throw of a hole, or a re-tee, or when directed to go to a drop zone that's marked like a tee pad. (Merely landing on a tee pad does not make that tee pad your lie.)

Among other things, this helps with island holes. The TD can say "everything but the island is OB" without unintentionally making it impossible to tee off.

 

[biscoe]

Did this question stem from Paige Pierce this morning?

She had an OB and marked her lie from the curb and not the OB rope which was closer to the basket. As a result, her back leg kicked the rope. Had she marked her meter from the rope, I don't think that would have happened.

Was the rope even the OB line? Seemed like it was the edge of the path most places. My impression when I watched it was that the rope was a golf course thing not a disc golf course thing.

 

[Steve West]

Was the rope even the OB line? Seemed like it was the edge of the path most places. My impression when I watched it was that the rope was a golf course thing not a disc golf course thing.

"The cart path is defined as the point where the roots of the grass and the concrete
edge of the cart path (including raised edging) meet, unless marked by rope."

 

[roblee]

What hole was this so we can view the tape? If she marked within a meter of the OB rope it was not mismarked, just less than the full meter she could have taken.

 

[roblee]

Just saw it on Hole 4. Kicking the rope is not a fault.

 

[txmxer]

Rules are meant to eliminate a competitive advantage.

In disc golf, some prefer to use them as a competitive advantage.

If you are doing the latter, you got it wrong IMO.

 

[Steve West]

Rules are meant to eliminate a competitive advantage.

In disc golf, some prefer to use them as a competitive advantage.

If you are doing the latter, you got it wrong IMO.

Which rule do you think can be used "wrong"?

 

[ToddL]

https://youtu.be/SB0p-o6smHc?t=3909

I'm not on site, but that doesn't look like an OB rope to me. There's about 15' of rope, knee high, on 3 stakes, near a spot that appears to have a fine edge between concrete and grass. All OB rope that I've noticed is staked to the ground. Now, what is that section of rope doing there? I have no idea. Crowd control? Make sure a golf cart doesn't drive through the T intersection into the green?

 

[biscoe]

https://youtu.be/SB0p-o6smHc?t=3909

I'm not on site, but that doesn't look like an OB rope to me. There's about 15' of rope, knee high, on 3 stakes, near a spot that appears to have a fine edge between concrete and grass. All OB rope that I've noticed is staked to the ground. Now, what is that section of rope doing there? I have no idea. Crowd control? Make sure a golf cart doesn't drive through the T intersection into the green?

That is what I thought from here at home as well.

 

[BillFleming]

https://youtu.be/SB0p-o6smHc?t=3909

I'm not on site, but that doesn't look like an OB rope to me. There's about 15' of rope, knee high, on 3 stakes, near a spot that appears to have a fine edge between concrete and grass. All OB rope that I've noticed is staked to the ground. Now, what is that section of rope doing there? I have no idea. Crowd control? Make sure a golf cart doesn't drive through the T intersection into the green?

It could be a visual aide to the OB. It can be difficult from a distance to spot an OB object or line; that is why tournaments try to have spotters to assist the players. Maybe the rope was being used as an indicator of where the OB existed, but was not the official OB line.

 

[araytx]

Correct me If I am wrong on the couple of assumptions.

I think (am assuming) the scenario in the OP suggests the OB rope is the official OB "designation," however it is not "on the ground." The rule about stance violations states no SUPPORTING POINT (key) be out-of-bounds. If the foot that hit the OB rope is "lifted up" (meaning in the air as I interp), then there is no way that could be a stance violation in either case, since it IS NOT a supporting point.

 

[BillFleming]

Correct me If I am wrong on the couple of assumptions.

I think (am assuming) the scenario in the OP suggests the OB rope is the official OB "designation," however it is not "on the ground." The rule about stance violations states no SUPPORTING POINT (key) be out-of-bounds. If the foot that hit the OB rope is "lifted up" (meaning in the air as I interp), then there is no way that could be a stance violation in either case, since it IS NOT a supporting point.

If the rope was the OB marker and not just for crowd control or to help visually identify the actual OB from a distance (similar to what a spotter is for), then the question would become "was the foot supporting the player while touching the rope"? It is possible to have a supporting point above the ground. If the OB was a fence, the player could lift their foot onto the fence and lean their body/weight back onto the fence - or even push off of it. In that case, the foot would be OB.

Also, you have to include rule 802.07.A Stance (bolding mine for emphasis)

If the lie has been marked by a marker disc, then when the disc is released, the player must:
Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the lie; and,
Have no supporting point closer to the target than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
Have all supporting points in-bounds.

The player CAN take a stance OB as long as the supporting point that is OB is no longer OB at the time of the release. I've seen players with a foot OB that lift it (use it to push off) before they release the disc.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The Stance rule 802.07A requires all supporting points to be inbounds. My read would be that the supporting point would need to be completely OB for it NOT to be inbounds, not just partial contact with the OB line. In which case, I just realized that standing on the OB line is allowed as long as part of the supporting point is inbounds. So, if a player is leaning on an OB fence for support during their throw, are their back or shoe, as examples, considered to be completely OB? If not, then leaning or support from an OB fence plane should be allowed.

 

[biscoe]

The Stance rule 802.07A requires all supporting points to be inbounds. My read would be that the supporting point would need to be completely OB for it NOT to be inbounds, not just partial contact with the OB line. In which case, I just realized that standing on the OB line is allowed as long as part of the supporting point is inbounds. So, if a player is leaning on an OB fence for support during their throw, are their back or shoe, as examples, considered to be completely OB? If not, then leaning or support from an OB fence plane should be allowed.

Your back, shoe, whatever is composed of a limitless number of points- all supporting ones must be inbounds.

 

[flatflip]

The Stance rule 802.07A requires all supporting points to be inbounds. My read would be that the supporting point would need to be completely OB for it NOT to be inbounds, not just partial contact with the OB line. In which case, I just realized that standing on the OB line is allowed as long as part of the supporting point is inbounds. So, if a player is leaning on an OB fence for support during their throw, are their back or shoe, as examples, considered to be completely OB? If not, then leaning or support from an OB fence plane should be allowed.

As I understand it, the line itself is inbounds. If your disc is touching an OB string, it is inbounds. Thus, if the ob line is on the ground and the fence is plumb (or if the fence itself is the OB line), supporting yourself on the fence is not illegal.

 

[biscoe]

As I understand it, the line itself is inbounds. If your disc is touching an OB string, it is inbounds. Thus, if the ob line is on the ground and the fence is plumb (or if the fence itself is the OB line), supporting yourself on the fence is not illegal.

Line has not been inbounds for years.

 

[Cgkdisc]

As I understand it, the line itself is inbounds. If your disc is touching an OB string, it is inbounds. Thus, if the ob line is on the ground and the fence is plumb (or if the fence itself is the OB line), supporting yourself on the fence is not illegal.

The line itself is OB. If your disc is on the OB side of the string with just the outer rim touching the string, and not partly over it, your disc is OB.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The Stance rule 802.07A requires all supporting points to be inbounds. My read would be that the supporting point would need to be completely OB for it NOT to be inbounds, not just partial contact with the OB line. In which case, I just realized that standing on the OB line is allowed as long as part of the supporting point is inbounds. So, if a player is leaning on an OB fence for support during their throw, are their back or shoe, as examples, considered to be completely OB? If not, then leaning or support from an OB fence plane should be allowed.

Clarification. Since the rule is about supporting POINTS, not physical parts like the complete shoe, foot or hand, I agree that all points of the foot, shoe, hand in contact with the ground must be inbounds even though sections of them specifically above the ground can be over but not touching the OB line.

It still is less clear regarding supporting contact with a more vertical OB surface, especially one that is irregular or slightly tilted towards or away from the OB area. In addition, is the outside wall of a building that's OB on the inside, really part of the OB line/plane or is it really the inside wall surface that defines the OB plane?

 

[Steve West]

Clarification. Since the rule is about supporting POINTS, not physical parts like the complete shoe, foot or hand, I agree that all points of the foot, shoe, hand in contact with the ground must be inbounds even though sections of them specifically above the ground can be over but not touching the OB line.

It still is less clear regarding supporting contact with a more vertical OB surface, especially one that is irregular or slightly tilted towards or away from the OB area. In addition, is the outside wall of a building that's OB on the inside, really part of the OB line/plane or is it really the inside wall surface that defines the OB plane?

OB is everything straight up and straight down from whatever is used to define OB. (Plus the OB side of whatever.)

If the TD says "the fence is the OB line" and the fence is leaning "in" in some areas, and "out" in others, then sometimes OB would start directly below the top of the fence, and sometimes OB would start at the bottom of the fence. All parts of the fence would be in the OB area.

Visualize it as if the sun were directly overhead and a point source infinitely far away. The OB area would include all parts of the shadow of the fence.

Then the group would need to decide whether the fence was a playing surface. A rock fence might be. A floppy chicken wire fence might not be.

 

[flatflip]

How wide is a line? In property law, the line itself has zero width. You are either one side of the line or another. Following this logic, the TD would have to specify which side of the {wall, fence, string, etc} is the boundary.

By the clarification you gave earlier, the inbounds side of the physical element is the boundary.