While I still feel it's a money grab, in the end I succumbed to the fact that a new movie release "theater at home" is going for 20-30.00 for about 2 hours of entertainment compared to 40.00 for 4 days (6 hours a day) of entertainment, plus a disc, yada..yada..yada... hook line and sinker. lol..
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USDGC/WNC Live Streaming Packages
- Thread starter DiscFifty
- Start date
While I still feel it's a money grab, in the end I succumbed to the fact that a new movie release "theater at home" is going for 20-30.00 for about 2 hours of entertainment compared to 40.00 for 4 days (6 hours a day) of entertainment, plus a disc, yada..yada..yada... hook line and sinker. lol..
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
I never could connect to the money grab. If they signed up 1000 folks, they brought in $20,000 to $40,000 That's a pretty weak money grab. Remember, these guys live in CA, $20,000 doesn't go far. I think they are just trying to move media from an Innova donation as part of marketing, to pay for itself. $40,000 would not pay for a "real" media company. It would barely pay for the food and coffee.
I'm willing to give Innova a pass. The total amount of money they've spent growing the woman's sport, the international sport, and supporting tournaments, is huge. Yes, they are expanding their market. But in a much less mercenary way than most capitalist companies.
Honestly, I admire most of the manufacturing companies. Only one has struck me as mercanary and they've been flayed nicely for their efforts.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
Why it won't let me change mercanary to mercenary escapes me. Sigh.
Yeah...I would agree. I don't think this was about a money grab. I have always seen it as a poor marketing decision.
I am not so sure they get a pass from me though. Elaine King and Val Doss don't seem too impressed by Innova's efforts in the women's game and I am not sure Innova is a bigger supporter of tournaments than some other disc companies. Though this is certainly regional.
I simply see the viewership market ,for an event like this, as pretty finite. By pay-walling the event, it seems they removed about 4/5th of their views...per this poll anyway. At the sports infancy, I just see that as a bad decision.
The by product for me, a casual viewer and fan (I don't really watch every round of every tournament) is the loss of my interest in the event. I am not following, nor will watch any of our nation's championship. It makes me kind of sad.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
Yeah, Val and Elaine are disappointed. But I'm looking at their overall long-term investment. I'm sure Paul is also disappointed with their effort to support his game. In a world where you negotiate your pay structure, any time a player doesn't get the deal they wanted, they are going to be disappointed. Innova is going to support players who pay off for them. And to an amount that pays off for them.
And I'm gonna admit, Innova did Val wrong in terms of named discs to support her career. On the other hand, they did really great things for Juliana Korver. I think the issue is harder than just one or two cases. For example, Innova just announced more support for the woman's championship at Winthrop.
But their long-term suipport of women players and women's events, when it was a limited part of the sport, suggests they did care.
But lets make it easy, I will just say, you're 100% correct. I concede the point that Innova hasn't done anything for women. I will stand firmly by my position that they've supported the sport per se quite well.
As for a pay wall. Most sport is behind a paywall. Just because we don't see the paywall because it is part of our cable package doesn't mean it isn't there. I'd hate to think that Innova is bad enough at business that they didn't do a calculation and decide that they paywall was a better option. I am not privy to their internal discussions, but I'd have to guess that your concern was one part of the internal meetings. And yes, companies get it wrong. I was pretty convinced that Discraft hiring Paul would privide eyes and sales, but that the cost would not pay off. I'm pretty sure I was wrong.
Dave - I want to do a paywall.
Jonathan - But we'll lose all those eyeballs!
Dave - You, lacky, I need an analysis of what our breakeven point is on sold viewing vs open viewing. Which gets us the most value.
Lacky - Yes sir, thank you sir - thinks (I'm getting paid to play with plastic! how cool is that?)
Jonathan - well, for sure if we do it there will be hours of discussion on line with folks battling it out over whether we are the evil empire or the republic. The value of that outweighs the lost eyeballs.
Dave - Do it!
I will concede the point that it might have been a misstep. But they did sell out their packages. So if it was a mistake, it was one based in math.
They know they have a niche captive audience with a hunger for content. I'm guessing there was early discussions like "how many eyeballs can we get on this thing?" and at some point the discussion went from how many eyeballs can we get to "how much money can we make".
At the least...they should have provided a discount for PDGA members because that might kick back to those who also support Innova discs. There also should have been a very basic live stream option without any silly $5.00 merch gifts, etc. So sure, definitely a money grab imop.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
I think those things are probably correct. They don't bother me and I can understand how they might bother others.
I think the discount idea for PDGA members is a great idea. The $20 version doesn't have a merch option. It's just for viewing, no post production vids. It works for me becuase I watch one or the other but rarely both. I know that many won't think it's worth it. I do. It runs seven hours a day for four days. That is great value for me.
BTW - if they had a serious communication about how much money they might make, I think they are being silly. No matter how I crunch it there just isn't that much cash involved.
I know folks who think this way, scrounging about ever dime and nickle they can take from folks. They are usually lousy human beings. Innova has never struck me like that. But I don't know those guys personally.
I know Houck somewhat. He talks highly of them.
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lyleoross
* Ace Member *
As an aside, not to be mean, but from here on I'd rather talk about the event, as requested by others. This is a great event and there is some great play.
My verdict
For those of you who paid and were watching you know what you got. For those of you who thought about it, were interested and chose not to...as they say in the South, y'all missed out on a good time.
Happily paid for the Gold Package. Have enjoyed the post production condensed content over the previous days. And have been most grateful to watch an amazing Championship Saturday, covered and commentated very well. No spoiler from me except to say that as a longtimer this was an incredibly exciting USDGC finish and I'm quite pleased to have watched it as it was happening.
Well done. I'll be paying again next year.
For those of you who paid and were watching you know what you got. For those of you who thought about it, were interested and chose not to...as they say in the South, y'all missed out on a good time.
Happily paid for the Gold Package. Have enjoyed the post production condensed content over the previous days. And have been most grateful to watch an amazing Championship Saturday, covered and commentated very well. No spoiler from me except to say that as a longtimer this was an incredibly exciting USDGC finish and I'm quite pleased to have watched it as it was happening.
Well done. I'll be paying again next year.
Billyray
Bogey Member
I'd love too! Give me like 2 weeks so I can see the footage : )
frasnow
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2009
- Messages
- 701
Broadcasting format of the past. I hope disc golf, through Jomez, CCDG, etc., continues to show a new model.
dehaas
* Ace Member *
Paid for the all access, and never watched any of the condensed coverage. That was my only gripe, condensed wasn't released until too late in the day. I ended up watching the prior day live coverage instead of I couldn't catch it as it was happening.
Worth the money for 4 days of coverage. I've always been a fan of the USDGC though. Say what you will about the course and artificial OB...that's a different debate...but the fact that pretty much any given hole can lead to a pretty big scoring spread makes for drama down to the wire. With that in mind I preferred so see the action sooner than later.
As far as people not down with the pay wall for larger events...pretty sure at this point that's the path things are on. If we're going to see disc golf on CBS Sports and ESPN2 free next day coverage is simply not going to happen.
And as long as the pay wall continues to generate enough money it's not going to go away. I definitely agree with the vote with your dollar mentality, but those choosing not to pay I'm afraid are slowly becoming a smaller and smaller minority.
Worth the money for 4 days of coverage. I've always been a fan of the USDGC though. Say what you will about the course and artificial OB...that's a different debate...but the fact that pretty much any given hole can lead to a pretty big scoring spread makes for drama down to the wire. With that in mind I preferred so see the action sooner than later.
As far as people not down with the pay wall for larger events...pretty sure at this point that's the path things are on. If we're going to see disc golf on CBS Sports and ESPN2 free next day coverage is simply not going to happen.
And as long as the pay wall continues to generate enough money it's not going to go away. I definitely agree with the vote with your dollar mentality, but those choosing not to pay I'm afraid are slowly becoming a smaller and smaller minority.
Hampstead
* Ace Member *
The day all coverage goes pay per view is the day I stop watching disc golf.
Out of respect for those not wanting to read over a wall of text, click the spoiler button if you want to read my review of the live stream.
Live DVR: C - With no easy way to rewind or fast forward it was a chore to interact with the stream. This was a major blow and was very frustrating. But at least they allowed you to click on a point past or present and not force you to watch live only. The quality of the stream was rock solid 95% of the time. If the DVR features were more robust the grade would have been an easy A.
Live Video Production (camera work, presentation, etc): B - What keeps this from getting an A from me was the strange camera work. Too many extended close ups of facial reactions. Especially on the drive, I would much rather watch the disc fly instead of looking at the player's face after the disc is released.
I also thought the zooming in on players while they were talking, standing, walking, etc, looked a bit uncomfortable at times for the players. When a player makes a bad shot, do we really need a head shot? We can still get the drama framed further back while giving the player some respect. The players knew when the cameras were close so they did their best humanoid impression to not show any emotion after a bad shot. That blank expressionless face zoomed in did nothing for me as a viewer.
The drone views were hit and miss. I'm guessing due to noise levels they couldn't be lower so it was hard to follow a disc. The overhead marching ant view was over used. I definitely could see it being used primarily as an occasional intro/outro.
There was some questionable views of the ladies, but perhaps unavoidable in a sport where players are constantly interacting with their bags. Seeing Paige warm up was cool, but we really don't need extended close ups. Again..a bit further back in the frame is fine.
No streaming issues at all. Image quality was stable, looked like around 480-720p. I have a slow connection so I don't know if 1080 was even possible. The only hiccups I noticed were when it was raining.
Audio (levels, eq, etc): C - Levels were better in later rounds, but Philo and Ian still sounded thin compared to the ladies and there seemed to be no compression on vocals so once in a while you would get a sonic blast. Ladies overall levels sounded fine, probably due to them having a more consistent speaking volume.
MPO Commentators: C - When it comes to sport's commentary of any kind, the first thing you need is someone with a clear speaking voice to limit ear fatigue due to a long broadcast. Ian unfortunately has a vocal delivery that does not suit live public speaking. It's crazy how fast he talks at times which also caused occasional stuttering, stammering, etc. With so many better options available, I'm still scratching my head how he got the job.
While knowing if the player is throwing a driver, fairway, mid, putter is great info and something the casual fan could latch onto, we really don't need to know the manufacturer or the mold for every throw. Maybe at some point simply show a stats screen with a breakdown of what the player has in his bag for the tournament.
Philo's speaking voice was great. I could listen to him recite the phone book with no problems. You know what I mean?
I could see Philo having a long career as a disc golf commentator. Plus..c'mon...the dude absolutely looks great on camera.
I really hope Nate Sexton and Philo are in the booth next year.
FPO Commentators: B+ - I thought the ladies did a great job. Both of them looked great on camera and have very clear speaking voices. Juliana seemed very much at home behind the mic and her knowledge of the game was amazing. You could tell we were listening to the mindset of a 5x champ. A fantastic choice and I hope the DGPT has her in mind to replace Val in the future.
Hannah obviously has a bright future in commentary. She tried too often to be "as smart as Juliana", instead she should have deferred to Juliana for basically anything shot related. She also suffered from Nate Doss verbiage barrage but I think this will improve as she gets more experience commentating.
Overall Value: B - I paid $40.00 for the gold package because someone said I'll be able to sell the disc for around 20-30. I think a fair market value for this event is anywhere from 5-15.00. However, at the 20.00 price I'm assuming a full professional production with a more solid camera crew/commenting team.
Live Video Production (camera work, presentation, etc): B - What keeps this from getting an A from me was the strange camera work. Too many extended close ups of facial reactions. Especially on the drive, I would much rather watch the disc fly instead of looking at the player's face after the disc is released.
I also thought the zooming in on players while they were talking, standing, walking, etc, looked a bit uncomfortable at times for the players. When a player makes a bad shot, do we really need a head shot? We can still get the drama framed further back while giving the player some respect. The players knew when the cameras were close so they did their best humanoid impression to not show any emotion after a bad shot. That blank expressionless face zoomed in did nothing for me as a viewer.
The drone views were hit and miss. I'm guessing due to noise levels they couldn't be lower so it was hard to follow a disc. The overhead marching ant view was over used. I definitely could see it being used primarily as an occasional intro/outro.
There was some questionable views of the ladies, but perhaps unavoidable in a sport where players are constantly interacting with their bags. Seeing Paige warm up was cool, but we really don't need extended close ups. Again..a bit further back in the frame is fine.
No streaming issues at all. Image quality was stable, looked like around 480-720p. I have a slow connection so I don't know if 1080 was even possible. The only hiccups I noticed were when it was raining.
Audio (levels, eq, etc): C - Levels were better in later rounds, but Philo and Ian still sounded thin compared to the ladies and there seemed to be no compression on vocals so once in a while you would get a sonic blast. Ladies overall levels sounded fine, probably due to them having a more consistent speaking volume.
MPO Commentators: C - When it comes to sport's commentary of any kind, the first thing you need is someone with a clear speaking voice to limit ear fatigue due to a long broadcast. Ian unfortunately has a vocal delivery that does not suit live public speaking. It's crazy how fast he talks at times which also caused occasional stuttering, stammering, etc. With so many better options available, I'm still scratching my head how he got the job.
While knowing if the player is throwing a driver, fairway, mid, putter is great info and something the casual fan could latch onto, we really don't need to know the manufacturer or the mold for every throw. Maybe at some point simply show a stats screen with a breakdown of what the player has in his bag for the tournament.
Philo's speaking voice was great. I could listen to him recite the phone book with no problems. You know what I mean?
I could see Philo having a long career as a disc golf commentator. Plus..c'mon...the dude absolutely looks great on camera.I really hope Nate Sexton and Philo are in the booth next year.
FPO Commentators: B+ - I thought the ladies did a great job. Both of them looked great on camera and have very clear speaking voices. Juliana seemed very much at home behind the mic and her knowledge of the game was amazing. You could tell we were listening to the mindset of a 5x champ. A fantastic choice and I hope the DGPT has her in mind to replace Val in the future.
Hannah obviously has a bright future in commentary. She tried too often to be "as smart as Juliana", instead she should have deferred to Juliana for basically anything shot related. She also suffered from Nate Doss verbiage barrage but I think this will improve as she gets more experience commentating.
Overall Value: B - I paid $40.00 for the gold package because someone said I'll be able to sell the disc for around 20-30. I think a fair market value for this event is anywhere from 5-15.00. However, at the 20.00 price I'm assuming a full professional production with a more solid camera crew/commenting team.
Out of respect for those not wanting to read over a wall of text, click the spoiler button if you want to read my review of the live stream.
Live DVR: C - With no easy way to rewind or fast forward it was a chore to interact with the stream. This was a major blow and was very frustrating. But at least they allowed you to click on a point past or present and not force you to watch live only. The quality of the stream was rock solid 95% of the time. If the DVR features were more robust the grade would have been an easy A.
Live Video Production (camera work, presentation, etc): B - What keeps this from getting an A from me was the strange camera work. Too many extended close ups of facial reactions. Especially on the drive, I would much rather watch the disc fly instead of looking at the player's face after the disc is released.
I also thought the zooming in on players while they were talking, standing, walking, etc, looked a bit uncomfortable at times for the players. When a player makes a bad shot, do we really need a head shot? We can still get the drama framed further back while giving the player some respect. The players knew when the cameras were close so they did their best humanoid impression to not show any emotion after a bad shot. That blank expressionless face zoomed in did nothing for me as a viewer.
The drone views were hit and miss. I'm guessing due to noise levels they couldn't be lower so it was hard to follow a disc. The overhead marching ant view was over used. I definitely could see it being used primarily as an occasional intro/outro.
There was some questionable views of the ladies, but perhaps unavoidable in a sport where players are constantly interacting with their bags. Seeing Paige warm up was cool, but we really don't need extended close ups. Again..a bit further back in the frame is fine.
No streaming issues at all. Image quality was stable, looked like around 480-720p. I have a slow connection so I don't know if 1080 was even possible. The only hiccups I noticed were when it was raining.
Audio (levels, eq, etc): C - Levels were better in later rounds, but Philo and Ian still sounded thin compared to the ladies and there seemed to be no compression on vocals so once in a while you would get a sonic blast. Ladies overall levels sounded fine, probably due to them having a more consistent speaking volume.
MPO Commentators: C - When it comes to sport's commentary of any kind, the first thing you need is someone with a clear speaking voice to limit ear fatigue due to a long broadcast. Ian unfortunately has a vocal delivery that does not suit live public speaking. It's crazy how fast he talks at times which also caused occasional stuttering, stammering, etc. With so many better options available, I'm still scratching my head how he got the job.
While knowing if the player is throwing a driver, fairway, mid, putter is great info and something the casual fan could latch onto, we really don't need to know the manufacturer or the mold for every throw. Maybe at some point simply show a stats screen with a breakdown of what the player has in his bag for the tournament.
Philo's speaking voice was great. I could listen to him recite the phone book with no problems. You know what I mean?
I really hope Nate Sexton and Philo are in the booth next year.
FPO Commentators: B+ - I thought the ladies did a great job. Both of them looked great on camera and have very clear speaking voices. Juliana seemed very much at home behind the mic and her knowledge of the game was amazing. You could tell we were listening to the mindset of a 5x champ. A fantastic choice and I hope the DGPT has her in mind to replace Val in the future.
Hannah obviously has a bright future in commentary. She tried too often to be "as smart as Juliana", instead she should have deferred to Juliana for basically anything shot related. She also suffered from Nate Doss verbiage barrage but I think this will improve as she gets more experience commentating.
Overall Value: B - I paid $40.00 for the gold package because someone said I'll be able to sell the disc for around 20-30. I think a fair market value for this event is anywhere from 5-15.00. However, at the 20.00 price I'm assuming a full professional production with a more solid camera crew/commenting team.
I quite enjoyed your breakdown. I thought that the FPO commentators were great. I didn't get to listen to the MPO much due to the DGN production we were trying to produce. They gave the golf some breathing room, which was really nice.
I agree with your summary of the reaction shots. They REALLY wanted to ring out some of that emotion and I think jumped too them a bit too quickly at times.
I honestly kinda felt bad for Philo and Ian. This was their chance to shine, and then Sexton comes into play due to an injury. Overall Nate brings experience and a great voice to the booth, he is a known great commodity. But, he is also a bright shining star that will overshadow everyone else. He made the broadcast better overall, hands down. But, I kinda felt like it didn't let the 2 guys picked to do this get their fair shake at steering the ship.
BuiltTooLong
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2014
- Messages
- 1,716
I feel like condensed coverage is a poor name for the post production work. If they were able to include the shots from other cards and players getting hot like the actual live coverage, I think it would be vastly superior. As it is now, paying an extra 10 for their post coverage only has value because the "DVR" feature is horrible to fast fwd or rewind.
DannyS
Bogey Member
Out of respect for those not wanting to read over a wall of text, click the spoiler button if you want to read my review of the live stream.
Live DVR: C - With no easy way to rewind or fast forward it was a chore to interact with the stream. This was a major blow and was very frustrating. But at least they allowed you to click on a point past or present and not force you to watch live only. The quality of the stream was rock solid 95% of the time. If the DVR features were more robust the grade would have been an easy A.
Live Video Production (camera work, presentation, etc): B - What keeps this from getting an A from me was the strange camera work. Too many extended close ups of facial reactions. Especially on the drive, I would much rather watch the disc fly instead of looking at the player's face after the disc is released.
I also thought the zooming in on players while they were talking, standing, walking, etc, looked a bit uncomfortable at times for the players. When a player makes a bad shot, do we really need a head shot? We can still get the drama framed further back while giving the player some respect. The players knew when the cameras were close so they did their best humanoid impression to not show any emotion after a bad shot. That blank expressionless face zoomed in did nothing for me as a viewer.
The drone views were hit and miss. I'm guessing due to noise levels they couldn't be lower so it was hard to follow a disc. The overhead marching ant view was over used. I definitely could see it being used primarily as an occasional intro/outro.
There was some questionable views of the ladies, but perhaps unavoidable in a sport where players are constantly interacting with their bags. Seeing Paige warm up was cool, but we really don't need extended close ups. Again..a bit further back in the frame is fine.
No streaming issues at all. Image quality was stable, looked like around 480-720p. I have a slow connection so I don't know if 1080 was even possible. The only hiccups I noticed were when it was raining.
Audio (levels, eq, etc): C - Levels were better in later rounds, but Philo and Ian still sounded thin compared to the ladies and there seemed to be no compression on vocals so once in a while you would get a sonic blast. Ladies overall levels sounded fine, probably due to them having a more consistent speaking volume.
MPO Commentators: C - When it comes to sport's commentary of any kind, the first thing you need is someone with a clear speaking voice to limit ear fatigue due to a long broadcast. Ian unfortunately has a vocal delivery that does not suit live public speaking. It's crazy how fast he talks at times which also caused occasional stuttering, stammering, etc. With so many better options available, I'm still scratching my head how he got the job.
While knowing if the player is throwing a driver, fairway, mid, putter is great info and something the casual fan could latch onto, we really don't need to know the manufacturer or the mold for every throw. Maybe at some point simply show a stats screen with a breakdown of what the player has in his bag for the tournament.
Philo's speaking voice was great. I could listen to him recite the phone book with no problems. You know what I mean?
I really hope Nate Sexton and Philo are in the booth next year.
FPO Commentators: B+ - I thought the ladies did a great job. Both of them looked great on camera and have very clear speaking voices. Juliana seemed very much at home behind the mic and her knowledge of the game was amazing. You could tell we were listening to the mindset of a 5x champ. A fantastic choice and I hope the DGPT has her in mind to replace Val in the future.
Hannah obviously has a bright future in commentary. She tried too often to be "as smart as Juliana", instead she should have deferred to Juliana for basically anything shot related. She also suffered from Nate Doss verbiage barrage but I think this will improve as she gets more experience commentating.
Overall Value: B - I paid $40.00 for the gold package because someone said I'll be able to sell the disc for around 20-30. I think a fair market value for this event is anywhere from 5-15.00. However, at the 20.00 price I'm assuming a full professional production with a more solid camera crew/commenting team.
I completely agree with your MPO commentator breakdown. Philo does a fine job and definitely has a future as a commentator and Nate really stepped it up to the next level. I thought he was great with his role this weekend and his interviews were great also. Ian is probably not the best option. I agree that I don't need to know the mold and type of plastic of every disc on every throw (maybe others really like that info). Also - there were numerous times that he lost track of whether someone was putting for par or bogey and how many strokes that would put him behind the leader. Ian seemed more like a fan that won a contest to be in the booth. I hope this doesn't sound too mean, but I am of the opinion that the play-by-play commentator really needs to be on their A game during the broadcast.
