DGPT: 2020 Dynamic Discs Open

[Rastnav]

I dislike walls in general and they are not practical when there are thousands of feet of OB to mark. Flags work fine for people actually in attendance. I think the "problem" will eventually be solved on the video production side with sone sort of overlays.

I think that you may be underestimating the difficulty, cost and practicality of solving this on the video production side in a live setting. Eventually, assuming the sport gets ongoing, mainstream, broadcast coverage, I agree that this type video effects could be made to happen. But I'm not sure it gets to that point if the non high-tech video coverage is too confusing for the uber-casual viewer.

It will be really interesting to see what the post-production of the DDO looks like when it gets to CBS.

 

[Ryan P.]

I think that you may be underestimating the difficulty, cost and practicality of solving this on the video production side in a live setting. Eventually, assuming the sport gets ongoing, mainstream, broadcast coverage, I agree that this type video effects could be made to happen. But I'm not sure it gets to that point if the non high-tech video coverage is too confusing for the uber-casual viewer.

It will be really interesting to see what the post-production of the DDO looks like when it gets to CBS.

I realize follow flights take time to create, but they're being done now, and they're the same thing. It's simply a matter of scale.

As far as making it accessible to casual viewers, that's all about design. Put a thin red line along OB, separated every hundred feet by the letters "OB", and maybe shade the OB grass a little. Jomez already increases saturation on their vids, so they might could simply leave the saturation normal for the OB area.

 

[Rastnav]

I realize follow flights take time to create, but they're being done now, and they're the same thing. It's simply a matter of scale.

As far as making it accessible to casual viewers, that's all about design. Put a thin red line along OB, separated every hundred feet by the letters "OB", and maybe shade the OB grass a little. Jomez already increases saturation on their vids, so they might could simply leave the saturation normal for the OB area.

Post-production effects and live effects are two very different animals. I agree that having shaded OB added in post production is possible. Not sure if it's possible with a days turn around time on anywhere close to existing budgets, but possible.

I was speaking to the ability of the sport to transition to a live broadcast, which is what would be needed to make mainstream broadcasters interested for the long term. Live sports are where the money is for broadcasters.

 

[araytx]

I don't think she has the skill set to be too aggressive on the course, her game plan seems to be "par golf and wait for others to make mistakes". That's pretty much how she won worlds, so she seems content to keep playing with that mind set, and there's nothing wrong that, especially in the FPO division.

For the experts, is she rounding on her drives? Looks like it me. hmmm....

I agree with you here, and its too bad. Paige S is actually a fairly skilled woman DG'er, but she definitely lacks killer instinct. On the women's side, par golf is sometimes good enough to net you a victory. However, most tournies you're going to be looking longingly from the middle of the pack playing at that level. If Paige could get another 50' on her drives and upshots (on long par 4s) she could probably shave at least 5 strokes a round off. She doesn't give up too many shots on bad putts. I really feel she could pick up that 50' merely by throwing flippier discs and getting a full S curve out of them.

Paige seems to be trying to throw all her drives anny. Its like she's taking a beefy disc up there and trying to force it over. It didn't work very well, and I noticed a lot of her drives just stalling out early and dying. She was routinely being outdriven by everyone else on the card. I think she should disc down just a little bit. Save the Ballista Pros for headwind drives only. For calm or downwind shots she might try a regular Ballista, a Sheriff, or even a Captain. She should also try to throw hyzerflips for max distance. An Enforcer sure isn't going to work there.

Playing par golf isn't going to cut it anymore. Paige P is going to mop the floor with any woman who merely plays to par. Paige P is out actively trying to birdie every hole. Occasionally she'll lose strokes with bad gambles, but she's gotten better lately and doesn't have as many OBs as before.

Kona P is another good person to talk about here. She's probably on Paige S's skill level, but she throws her drives a lot further consistently. She throws flippier discs and hyzerflips them. Kona loses all her strokes on putting. She misses a lot of short ones, sometimes badly. I like the way she throws drives though.

Really??? The 2018 World Champion. At Smugglers Notch nonetheless. Needs to ask the advice of whom? OK, OK, a tad bit sarcastic there, but you guys are missing something. Some players have the game to do certain things well. For instance, no one asks Tom Brady to get advice on being a "scrambling quarterback" from Lamar Jackson. To say that she won Worlds by playing par golf and waiting for others to screw up is nothing more than having a short memory. She won Worlds by shooting that -5, 1021 round 2 at Fox Run, a very tough course. Yes, others were making mistakes (Paige S had a 6-stroke lead by then), but Paige S killed them the rest of the way with her consistently being in the top three each round, absolutely balling all three times at Fox Run.

Paige understands her skill set and there are definitely a few things she does better than nearly every FPO player. And she is smart to continue to focus on perfecting those things. Otherwise she couldn't have done what she did. I certainly agree that a course like ECC isn't her style of course ... but then again, I could look and see who won FPO at Las Vegas last year and guess who's name we'd find? Paige had a whirlwind year in 2019, including planning a wedding and getting married. I think it may take her a little bit to get back to what she did before. Paige S IS NOT going to get mopped up when the course requires a lot of precision and has several holes with advantage to putter throwers. She's the best in FPO at that right now. And anyone that knows anything about developing talent (in general) knows that the greatest opportunity to grow (in anything, much less sports) is the areas where you already have strength. Of course she needs to work on some things. I happen to know she was working hard on the roller before she met and got engaged to Grady. She is gonna be fine in places like Idlewild, Maple Hill, Waco, places like those. It's not all horror. She is a WC, well-earned and deserved, for goodness' sake!

 

[wolfhaley]

I thought she only won world's because it was an even numbered year.

 

[DiscFifty]

Really??? .... She is a WC, well-earned and deserved, for goodness' sake!

I mean, I get everything you said, but at the end of the day she is a 950 rated FPO player. She's not going to win most (big) events with that skill level. This year her places so far are 3,4,9,11th. But..like I said.. she will be right there ready to take the w if the top of the field starts making mistakes. Granted the "top of the field" in the FPO division at any given time may be only an additional 3-5 players. Hey..I'm not saying most FPO would not love to be in her shoes.

I really thought the "little paige", "big paige" dynamic worked well at DD, but now that they are on different teams the difference in the skill set seems a bit more obvious. Hard to explain..

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

No one who wants to watch ball golf skips watching because the OB is hard to see. How do you know a ball is out of bounds in ball golf, when it's not obvious? You hear it from the announcers.

Better camera work and more cameras (and raised cameras) will allow announcers to better communicate OB status.

I don't mind the flags. I do mind when the announcers don't know if a disc is in bounds or not and really have limited ways to find out.

 

[araytx]

I mean, I get everything you said, but at the end of the day she is a 950 rated FPO player. She's not going to win most (big) events with that skill level. This year her places so far are 3,4,9,11th. But..like I said.. she will be right there ready to take the w if the top of the field starts making mistakes. Granted the "top of the field" in the FPO division at any given time may be only an additional 3-5 players. Hey..I'm not saying most FPO would not love to be in her shoes.

I really thought the "little paige", "big paige" dynamic worked well at DD, but now that they are on different teams the difference in the skill set seems a bit more obvious. Hard to explain..

I guess then I am missing understanding what you mean. "At the end of the day she's a 950-rated FPO player." That makes her 7th overall among touring players, and without the three Europeans and Jen Allen, who at masters age has scaled back on touring a lot, she's 4th behind the three other active World Champs. Yes, she has to beat Paige P, Catrina, and Sarah to win a big event. But she's already done that twice and has come close several times . Now if you're comparing her JUST to Paige Pierce, there's hundreds of golfers you could say the same about. That's a whole 'nother level. Maybe, just maybe, she has to wait for Paige to mess up. But she can and has beaten the others. If I were her (and I'm not, but), I'd take advantage of the fact that I'm 7 or 8 years younger, bide my time staying in the top 5, improve my body physically where she might have youth on her side, and and go from there improving my game incrementally.

No one who wants to watch ball golf skips watching because the OB is hard to see. How do you know a ball is out of bounds in ball golf, when it's not obvious? You hear it from the announcers.

Better camera work and more cameras (and raised cameras) will allow announcers to better communicate OB status.

I don't mind the flags. I do mind when the announcers don't know if a disc is in bounds or not and really have limited ways to find out.

We haven't seen the coverage yet. Here's a bet. With all the "talk" on social media about being able to see where the OB is, MAYBE Jomez will have that figured out by the time the CBS coverage is shown.

 

[Rastnav]

No one who wants to watch ball golf skips watching because the OB is hard to see. How do you know a ball is out of bounds in ball golf, when it's not obvious? You hear it from the announcers.

OB in ball golf is almost always true OB, the edge of the property line of the course. That's especially true for professional broadcast golf. It just doesn't come into play that much. You won't ever see a ball golf course add arbitrary OB encircling the green in order to turn an easy par-3 into a hard one. What they have instead are true island greens, in the middle of water. That's just the maturity level of the sport plus the fact that it was almost always a monetarily intensive sport.

A ball trickling back into the pond because it hit the false front on the green is exciting television. Being informed that a disc you can see is over an arbitrary rope that you can't see is not.

 

[araytx]

OB in ball golf is almost always true OB, the edge of the property line of the course. That's especially true for professional broadcast golf. It just doesn't come into play that much. You won't ever see a ball golf course add arbitrary OB encircling the green in order to turn an easy par-3 into a hard one. What they have instead are true island greens, in the middle of water. That's just the maturity level of the sport plus the fact that it was almost always a monetarily intensive sport.

A ball trickling back into the pond because it hit the false front on the green is exciting television. Being informed that a disc you can see is over an arbitrary rope that you can't see is not.

If you say so. I thought your first argument was with Oriole Lefty.

OB is hard to see. How do you know a ball is out of bounds in ball golf, when it's not obvious? You hear it from the announcers.

I see now that you just don't like it.

 

[Twmccoy]

I mean, I get everything you said, but at the end of the day she is a 950 rated FPO player. She's not going to win most (big) events with that skill level. This year her places so far are 3,4,9,11th. But..like I said.. she will be right there ready to take the w if the top of the field starts making mistakes. Granted the "top of the field" in the FPO division at any given time may be only an additional 3-5 players. Hey..I'm not saying most FPO would not love to be in her shoes.

I really thought the "little paige", "big paige" dynamic worked well at DD, but now that they are on different teams the difference in the skill set seems a bit more obvious. Hard to explain..

This is pretty much how I see it. Paige S has undoubtedly had her success. She does play fairly steady golf, and seldom gives away dumb shots with OBs or missed easy putts.

However, on a normal day she isn't going to touch Paige P in terms of skill level. Paige S isn't going to beat Paige P unless Paige P has a few terrible rounds and a ton of OBs. It can (and has) happened, but it won't happen often. It'll happen even less now that Paige P cleaned up her game a lot.


Being forced to take 3 months off didn't do anyone any good, but Paige P doesn't look like she missed a beat. She came out sharp and ready to roll. Paige S looked like she was just out there to have fun and try to keep the disc in bounds. I know there won't be a pro worlds this year, but I think Paige P will pretty much win every event she plays the rest of this year.

Paige P goes out and plays to win. Paige S plays for the middle of the pack finish, but will take the W occasionally if several other top players stumble badly late.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

[/B]

This is pretty much how I see it. Paige S has undoubtedly had her success. She does play fairly steady golf, and seldom gives away dumb shots with OBs or missed easy putts.

However, on a normal day she isn't going to touch Paige P in terms of skill level. Paige S isn't going to beat Paige P unless Paige P has a few terrible rounds and a ton of OBs. It can (and has) happened, but it won't happen often. It'll happen even less now that Paige P cleaned up her game a lot.


Being forced to take 3 months off didn't do anyone any good, but Paige P doesn't look like she missed a beat. She came out sharp and ready to roll. Paige S looked like she was just out there to have fun and try to keep the disc in bounds. I know there won't be a pro worlds this year, but I think Paige P will pretty much win every event she plays the rest of this year.

Paige P goes out and plays to win. Paige S plays for the middle of the pack finish, but will take the W occasionally if several other top players stumble badly late.

I think on the right type of course, (e.g shorter, technical, lots of risk/reward shots), Paige Shue's consustent, mistake avoiding style of play could get a W. I don't think the layout at ECC really plays to her strengths, and the combo of that with the wind and time off (and what that time off probably does you a young person's confidence)... had her playing even more conservatively than she normally would have.

Just my take.

There are some really good FPO players, but when Fierce Pierce is playing well on a course where distance is a big asset, I don't think the others can hang with her after two or three rounds.

 

[araytx]

[/B]

This is pretty much how I see it. Paige S has undoubtedly had her success. She does play fairly steady golf, and seldom gives away dumb shots with OBs or missed easy putts.

However, on a normal day she isn't going to touch Paige P in terms of skill level. Paige S isn't going to beat Paige P unless Paige P has a few terrible rounds and a ton of OBs. It can (and has) happened, but it won't happen often. It'll happen even less now that Paige P cleaned up her game a lot.


Being forced to take 3 months off didn't do anyone any good, but Paige P doesn't look like she missed a beat. She came out sharp and ready to roll. Paige S looked like she was just out there to have fun and try to keep the disc in bounds. I know there won't be a pro worlds this year, but I think Paige P will pretty much win every event she plays the rest of this year.

Paige P goes out and plays to win. Paige S plays for the middle of the pack finish, but will take the W occasionally if several other top players stumble badly late.

The arguments you present here are not limited to Paige Shue. They apply just as easily to Sarah, Catrina, JWeesy, Rebecca, Lisa F, Madison W, and on down the line.

Conparing her solely to Paige S is like comparing every outfielder to Mike Trout. It's not about Paige S's game specifically; it's about the whole field catching up to Paige P. Other than your comment that Paige S "plays for the middle of the pack", which I believe is horsefeathers. She was -9 through 15 yesterday but still went for birdies which, combined with a scoring error penalty, caused her to back down the leader board down the stretch.

 

[DiscJunkie]

No one who wants to watch ball golf skips watching because the OB is hard to see. How do you know a ball is out of bounds in ball golf, when it's not obvious? You hear it from the announcers.

Better camera work and more cameras (and raised cameras) will allow announcers to better communicate OB status.

I don't mind the flags. I do mind when the announcers don't know if a disc is in bounds or not and really have limited ways to find out.

I believe this goes back to the commentating style that has risen in DG.
In other sports, the commentators tend to be seen as experts to help us understand what's happening and why. They have studied the film and know the outcome of the OB.

In post-production DG videos, we seem to like the style that the guys are in the armchairs across the room, and they are seeing it for the first time just like we are.
Here's a question for all of us:
Would we like it better if they were the experts who already know about the OB, or do we prefer that they find out about it the same way that we do?

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

I believe this goes back to the commentating style that has risen in DG.
In other sports, the commentators tend to be seen as experts to help us understand what's happening and why. They have studied the film and know the outcome of the OB.

In post-production DG videos, we seem to like the style that the guys are in the armchairs across the room, and they are seeing it for the first time just like we are.
Here's a question for all of us:
Would we like it better if they were the experts who already know about the OB, or do we prefer that they find out about it the same way that we do?

Very good point. I have mixed feelings about the "fake reality" these broadcasts utilize in which the announcers act like the play is happening in real time. I won't go into all the reasons here. But in cases where the announcers should have access to "factual" knowledge — that a disc went OB — to create possible confusion by acting like you don't know is, at best, goofy.

There was a hole on the final round live coverage at DD where Paul went OB and it looked like Emerson did too, and then Emerson laid up the subsequent putt for "par" and Nate D and Jamie were confused. Turns out Emerson had not been OB and the whole reporting mess was created because Nate had said "it looks like Emerson is OB." And then this whole alternative reality started. That's in a similar vein to what you are saying where the announcers need to say, "That looks close. We will need to get clarification," instead of just guessing.

 

[Rastnav]

Very good point. I have mixed feelings about the "fake reality" these broadcasts utilize in which the announcers act like the play is happening in real time. I won't go into all the reasons here. But in cases where the announcers should have access to "factual" knowledge — that a disc went OB — to create possible confusion by acting like you don't know is, at best, goofy.

There was a hole on the final round live coverage at DD where Paul went OB and it looked like Emerson did too, and then Emerson laid up the subsequent putt for "par" and Nate D and Jamie were confused. Turns out Emerson had not been OB and the whole reporting mess was created because Nate had said "it looks like Emerson is OB." And then this whole alternative reality started. That's in a similar vein to what you are saying where the announcers need to say, "That looks close. We will need to get clarification," instead of just guessing.

In the live coverage, I think the announcers really don't know whether the player was OB. Especially just after the disc comes to rest. That's all going to be dependent on a) whether the spotter called the OB, b) whether they called it correctly, c) whether that information was relayed to the booth somehow. That wouldn't always happen correctly and definitely not always instantly.

In the tape-delay coverage, there is lots of "fake" surprise. But there is also, from the pros at least, genuine surprise. Especially if the weren't on the card, or a camera angle is showing something they haven't seen. And sometimes I think they are basically saying, "I don't have whether they went OB up on my laptop right as I am making this comment".

 

[Bogeyman928]

I believe this goes back to the commentating style that has risen in DG.
In other sports, the commentators tend to be seen as experts to help us understand what's happening and why. They have studied the film and know the outcome of the OB.

In post-production DG videos, we seem to like the style that the guys are in the armchairs across the room, and they are seeing it for the first time just like we are.
Here's a question for all of us:
Would we like it better if they were the experts who already know about the OB, or do we prefer that they find out about it the same way that we do?

I prefer the expert approach. Not just in the course but in the players and whats in their bags as well (for those pros who dont throw disscraft or innova) I would love to see Philo and Doss ,any of them really I think those two are just the closest to professional on the mic, get sent to an ESPN school to expand their broadcasting skills.

 

[wolfhaley]

I prefer the expert approach. Not just in the course but in the players and whats in their bags as well (for those pros who dont throw disscraft or innova) I would love to see Philo and Doss ,any of them really I think those two are just the closest to professional on the mic, get sent to an ESPN school to expand their broadcasting skills.

The Booger school of broadcasting?

 

[Rastnav]

I prefer the expert approach. Not just in the course but in the players and whats in their bags as well (for those pros who dont throw disscraft or innova) I would love to see Philo and Doss ,any of them really I think those two are just the closest to professional on the mic, get sent to an ESPN school to expand their broadcasting skills.

I'll be honest, the thing that drew me to following the pro-scene was how much NOT like typical pro broadcasts the tape delayed coverage is. Actual current pros relating relevant and timely knowledge about what is going on without worrying too much about things like "narrative" is very appealing to me.

For that reason, even though I have now paid for it, the DGPT live coverage commentary makes me want to shove ice picks in both my ears. Way too many bland sports euphemisms and aphorisms are coming out of Doss and ... that other dude. For the love of god, this is not the way.

 

[jvphobic]

I'll be honest, the thing that drew me to following the pro-scene was how much NOT like typical pro broadcasts the tape delayed coverage is. Actual current pros relating relevant and timely knowledge about what is going on without worrying too much about things like "narrative" is very appealing to me.

For that reason, even though I have now paid for it, the DGPT live coverage commentary makes me want to shove ice picks in both my ears. Way too many bland sports euphemisms and aphorisms are coming out of Doss and ... that other dude. For the love of god, this is not the way.

We have been getting lots of positive responses to the commentating crew. Everyone has preferences. Some like a laid back feel, but that only works in post production. In live we are looking for a much more professional format.

Going with that "casual armchair" feel for 6+ hours would be horrible.