DGPT: 2020 Dynamic Discs Open

[araytx]

I must point out that could be true for all tournaments, if only par was set according to the official definition.

But, that's not why I'm posting. I just don't feel like I grok a tournament until I look at these:

Spoiler

OK. So I guess you're saying that E.Mac is getting it right where others aren't. I think he'll taker the compliment.

Fair enough. I think part of the difference in opinion is likely regional. 'Round these parts we don't see wide open, bomber courses like ECC. We play the game on wooded courses, with trees and elevation forcing a shot shaping, strategic disc placement game. Honestly, that does not always translate well to video either.

Closer to par does not really come into play. McBeth's -18 at Toboggan wasn't boring. I indeed would much rather watch top players at Idlewyld than a golf course. ECC provides little in strategy or course management. Should I go left of that one big tree or right. Should I throw over that bush or around it.

My biggest complaint is the course did not translate to video very well, at all. Even after the nice drone hole flyovers, the OB was very difficult to discern. All you see is a big field with a sea of little tiny flapping flags. It was hard to tell the color, so OB, circle 1 and circle two were all indistinguishable.

I think you should reread Nova's post. Seems she is saying she really enjoys the "tournament experience" provided by the ECC folks. Her course comments seem to revolve around the idea that the OB is difficult and they designer seems to get that one tree in the right place.

This is indeed, my opinion......cause that is kinda what we do here. I would MUCH rather play Quakers Challenge from Worlds last year than ECC and would MUCH rather watch top players do the same. I honestly found the ECC coverage unwatchable.

I acknowledged what Nova said about the experience. The amenities that the Emporia Country Club gives the players and what Dynamic Discs brings outside of the actual course. No doubt that is one of the best, if not THE best, in the business currently. Again, to those saying "I don't like" (the marked OB) as the primary obstacle, I get that. We all, as I said have our preferences. If that's just it, stand by it. When talking about "how it translates to television viewing," well that's an ever-evolving process and as technology improves and more events are held and companies learn, that will to. I'm old enough to remember watching live pro sports without the little scoreboard and clock at the bottom or in the corner, and football without the yellow first down line-to-gain on the screen, and several other things. Some of you don't know what I talking about. The "marking of the OB" in live time (with one color) and circle 1 (with another color) I am sure will come eventually. And with THAT issue out of the way in the future will you likely change your opinion of Emporia Country Club course? I'm guessing that for people who don't like it now, the answer is you likely will not change your opinion then, even if the television coverage translated better. So that brings me back to my original place -- if you just don't like the course, just say that -- "I personally just don't like it."

I can guarantee you that the woods game suits my own style of play much better than that style of play. But to be great at something you need to find a way to do it all well. You can't just be an indoor-on-turf great football team. You can't be just a great clay court tennis player. You can't be a run-and-gun team who can't win in half-court style. Yes, Paul's -18 at Toboggan was exciting; he was doing something no one else could do AND it was on film. You don't think that if Calvin had started on that type of pace on Sunday toward a -15, -16 or -17 and the cameras kept switching over to his round it wouldn't have been just as exciting? Sure, it would have been, because then Vinny would have been doing something that no one else came close to doing. It wasn't the course that made Paul's -18 at Toboggan interesting, it was his performance on camera. I like seeing the players having to do different things at different tournaments, and that can be just as fulfilling at ECC as any place else imho.

My (personal) biggest win to date came in Emporia and it was due to good rounds on ECC and Olpe, two courses that don't best suit my game. But you adapt and work on EVERY skill, not just the wooded course skills. And btw, I had a blast at Quakers myself; threw some of my best shots in a while. Had my putter not let me down there I would have been in contention for the World title. And, also btw, strategic disc placement is important at ECC as well. I'll disagree with you a lot if you say it's not.

Having played it a few years ago at GBO - I agree with all of what you're saying about playing it. It is exciting, challenging, nerve-wracking, and beautiful. But man - I have never had much desire to watch the coverage. To me: it just doesn't translate well on TV, from my perspective, playing a layout that uses OB lines as the primary obstacle. I've always watched USDGC primarily for the prestige and to know who wins, only really enjoy watching some of the holes. I finally enjoyed watching some of the Ledgestone last year - because they played the Northwoods course. I just don't see how people can enjoy watching courses where the flags are the main challenge.

Woj, I getcha. But what you're really saying is "you don't like it" when the OB flags are the primary challenge. You don't like that; I get it. I know disc golf purists that think the roller shot should be outlawed, that think drop zones are a joke, that think Ams should get paid and all kinds of other opinions. We all have them.

 

[araytx]

Btw, ChrisWoj - I think I just watched a video of yours on throwing spike and sweep hyzers. If so, great job in that. I'd never lined up at a steep enough angle to get that true "spike" until watching your video. Now that I've figured it out, I can see why it is such a useful shot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And if you don't provide all of us a link to that video, we'll all say it doesn't exist and Woj paid you to write the review.

 

[azplaya25]

And if you don't provide all of us a link to that video, we'll all say it doesn't exist and Woj paid you to write the review.

Sidewinder posted it in another thread:


https://youtu.be/t7h7WcqlCls


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ChrisWoj]

OK. So I guess you're saying that E.Mac is getting it right where others aren't. I think he'll taker the compliment.
I acknowledged what Nova said about the experience. The amenities that the Emporia Country Club gives the players and what Dynamic Discs brings outside of the actual course. No doubt that is one of the best, if not THE best, in the business currently. Again, to those saying "I don't like" (the marked OB) as the primary obstacle, I get that. We all, as I said have our preferences. If that's just it, stand by it. When talking about "how it translates to television viewing," well that's an ever-evolving process and as technology improves and more events are held and companies learn, that will to. I'm old enough to remember watching live pro sports without the little scoreboard and clock at the bottom or in the corner, and football without the yellow first down line-to-gain on the screen, and several other things. Some of you don't know what I talking about. The "marking of the OB" in live time (with one color) and circle 1 (with another color) I am sure will come eventually. And with THAT issue out of the way in the future will you likely change your opinion of Emporia Country Club course? I'm guessing that for people who don't like it now, the answer is you likely will not change your opinion then, even if the television coverage translated better. So that brings me back to my original place -- if you just don't like the course, just say that -- "I personally just don't like it."

What we all really want to know is what they did when the pterodactyl's swooped in. Seems hard to follow on a low definition CRT TV.

Woj, I getcha. But what you're really saying is "you don't like it" when the OB flags are the primary challenge. You don't like that; I get it. I know disc golf purists that think the roller shot should be outlawed, that think drop zones are a joke, that think Ams should get paid and all kinds of other opinions. We all have them.

I enjoyed the challenge - it was a fun challenge. "I don't like it" would be overly simplistic, and fail to capture that there were plenty of elements that I did like. I suppose if I want to go beyond describing the problems I see visually on television with that kind of golf - I DO see it as creating a dramatic reduction in the importance of the beginning of the flight path. I prefer a course that challenges both the beginning and the end of the flight path off the tee. Even on a layout as challenging at the back end of the flight, errors in the beginning of the flight can still play because there's nothing out there to punish them as long as they finish alright. The tightness of the OB helps with that somewhat because early flight errors will often be reflected in the disc's landing angle, but doesn't completely eliminate that forgiveness.

While I agree with your assessment of a lot of tight courses, I don't think tight pro courses need to be nearly as tight as you described in that earlier post. I'd rather see a layout like IDGC's WR Jackson where you're challenged throughout the flight of the disc. Harmony Bends is another example. There are a few holes on those courses that push a bit too much toward challenging the early flight of the disc, but overall their holes challenge the player to execute the flight precisely throughout.

These are the top pros in the world, I'd like to watch them on courses that challenge the precision of every foot of that flight path.

 

[ChrisWoj]

And if you don't provide all of us a link to that video, we'll all say it doesn't exist and Woj paid you to write the review.

Sidewinder posted it in another thread:


https://youtu.be/t7h7WcqlCls


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The video can exist AND I can have paid him to write the review.

 

[BillFleming]

I noticed something on the live MPO coverage and wanted to mention it. Thoughts?

Spoiler

What was the deal with Emerson Keith on #17? He went OB off the tee and marked his lie with his mini a meter from the OB line. But... then he placed his driver on top of his mini and made his next throw. I don't remember ever seeing that before.

When you get to your lie, you have a few options.
1. leave the disc where it lies and use that as your 'mark'
2. put down a mini disc and move your previous disc
a. toss it back to your bag (make sure the toss is less than 5 meters/15 feet or is a practice throw - 1 stroke penalty)
b. set it aside
c. place it on top of your mini

The main reason I've heard for 2c is so you don't forget to pick up your mini....it's much smaller and easier to overlook, especially if you are putting and get your disc out of the basket before picking up your mini. Having the larger disc over the mini makes it easier to spot and remember to pick up.

 

[BillFleming]

A couple of thoughts on things brought up in this thread.

Coverage:
My understanding was that Dynamic Discs (main sponsor) got CBS Sports News to do coverage and then asked Jomez, etc to not do the post coverage. This can actually be a very good thing for the sport. Right now, rounds are shown on YouTube and DGPT Network, but the 'advertisment/sponsorship' dollars isn't adding to the sport - it goes to whomever created the video. Now, if it is on TV more companies will see the sport and possible want to get involved; which could lead to more sponsorships and larger payouts in tournaments. Why do you think ball golf payouts are so huge? It's not from the money the pros pay to enter tournaments.

Paul McBeth:
That guy puts in a lot more work than most, if not all, of us do. I saw a YouTube video where Simon Lizotte showed up at Paul's house at 1 AM - Paul was running on the treadmill. He built a course on his property that allows him to practice shots that he feels he needs to work on/improve. He has baskets in his basement/garage where he constantly practices. Of course, he's highly paid and disc golf is his 'job' so he has more time than most of us do to focus on his game.

 

[BillFleming]

Paul McBeth working out on the treadmill at 1 AM:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOjN6kiiEGE

Pure dedication.

 

[BuiltTooLong]

Effusive glorifying of all things DD

I believe people would put a little more stock into your input, if 95% of it didn't read like a Dynamic Disc advertisement.

 

[Arisugawa]

ECC provides little in strategy or course management. Should I go left of that one big tree or right. Should I throw over that bush or around it...

I think you should reread Nova's post. Seems she is saying she really enjoys the "tournament experience" provided by the ECC folks. Her course comments seem to revolve around the idea that the OB is difficult and they designer seems to get that one tree in the right place.

OK. So I guess you're saying that E.Mac is getting it right where others aren't...

I can guarantee you that the woods game suits my own style of play much better than that style of play. But to be great at something you need to find a way to do it all well. You can't just be an indoor-on-turf great football team. You can't be just a great clay court tennis player...

But you adapt and work on EVERY skill, not just the wooded course skills. And btw, I had a blast at Quakers myself; threw some of my best shots in a while. Had my putter not let me down there I would have been in contention for the World title. And, also btw, strategic disc placement is important at ECC as well. I'll disagree with you a lot if you say it's not.

We can certainly make arguments that OB as defined by flags is a different course management and different strategy in comparison to what is commonly considered natural OB even if there is no penalty assigned to it. Which is to say, a penalty stroke for crossing paint on a ball golf course may not have the same consequences as remaining in bounds but having to crawl through three feet of bramble just to pitch out back into the fairway if a disc didn't clear a tunnel of trees. Obviously, a lot of this is subjective and one's personal preferences come into play when saying one might be more impressive than the other.

But that doesn't mean that strategy, placement, or course management isn't involved. Shots still have to be shaped, lines still have to chosen, the speed and stability of discs need to be selected, and landing angles absolutely have to be considered. And all of these things become magnified on a course where the wind is not obstructed and might gust upwards of 45 mph.

ECC is not an easy course to play, in my opinion. It isn't something most players are going to spray and pray. I think it's a disservice to say the ECC does not provide either strategy or course management.

And this is something that's definitely considered when trying to set the courses for a world championship. That's why you might play Northwood Gold and Sunset, or Fox Run and Brewster, so the overall skills involved in the game are tested to provide a more comprehensive test.

 

[Steve West]

When you get to your lie, you have a few options.
1. leave the disc where it lies and use that as your 'mark'
2. put down a mini disc and move your previous disc
a. toss it back to your bag (make sure the toss is less than 5 meters/15 feet or is a practice throw - 1 stroke penalty)
b. set it aside
c. place it on top of your mini

The main reason I've heard for 2c is so you don't forget to pick up your mini....it's much smaller and easier to overlook, especially if you are putting and get your disc out of the basket before picking up your mini. Having the larger disc over the mini makes it easier to spot and remember to pick up.

Clarification of "on top of". There is a two-throw penalty for "Moving or obscuring a thrown disc or marker disc". So make sure you don't cover up the mini completely. Other players need to be able to see at least the back edge of your mini.

 

[Flick Maniac]

A couple of thoughts on things brought up in this thread.

---

Paul McBeth:
That guy puts in a lot more work than most, if not all, of us do. I saw a YouTube video where Simon Lizotte showed up at Paul's house at 1 AM - Paul was running on the treadmill. He built a course on his property that allows him to practice shots that he feels he needs to work on/improve. He has baskets in his basement/garage where he constantly practices. Of course, he's highly paid and disc golf is his 'job' so he has more time than most of us do to focus on his game.

Jussi said about the same when their group arrived at his house on one of the European Opens. Guys straight out of the plane+car ride and Drew Gibson asks: whats the wifi password? Paul asks: wheres the basket?

Thats it right there.

 

[Twmccoy]

I don't think she has the skill set to be too aggressive on the course, her game plan seems to be "par golf and wait for others to make mistakes". That's pretty much how she won worlds, so she seems content to keep playing with that mind set, and there's nothing wrong that, especially in the FPO division.

For the experts, is she rounding on her drives? Looks like it me. hmmm....

I agree with you here, and its too bad. Paige S is actually a fairly skilled woman DG'er, but she definitely lacks killer instinct. On the women's side, par golf is sometimes good enough to net you a victory. However, most tournies you're going to be looking longingly from the middle of the pack playing at that level. If Paige could get another 50' on her drives and upshots (on long par 4s) she could probably shave at least 5 strokes a round off. She doesn't give up too many shots on bad putts. I really feel she could pick up that 50' merely by throwing flippier discs and getting a full S curve out of them.

Paige seems to be trying to throw all her drives anny. Its like she's taking a beefy disc up there and trying to force it over. It didn't work very well, and I noticed a lot of her drives just stalling out early and dying. She was routinely being outdriven by everyone else on the card. I think she should disc down just a little bit. Save the Ballista Pros for headwind drives only. For calm or downwind shots she might try a regular Ballista, a Sheriff, or even a Captain. She should also try to throw hyzerflips for max distance. An Enforcer sure isn't going to work there.

Playing par golf isn't going to cut it anymore. Paige P is going to mop the floor with any woman who merely plays to par. Paige P is out actively trying to birdie every hole. Occasionally she'll lose strokes with bad gambles, but she's gotten better lately and doesn't have as many OBs as before.

Kona P is another good person to talk about here. She's probably on Paige S's skill level, but she throws her drives a lot further consistently. She throws flippier discs and hyzerflips them. Kona loses all her strokes on putting. She misses a lot of short ones, sometimes badly. I like the way she throws drives though.

 

[mizunodave]

There is no way Paige Shue hasn't tried all of that. Just saying.

Paige Shue reminds me a bit of Valerie Jenkins. Doesn't crush it, but doesn't make mistakes. If Catrina and Pierce get into a firefight and start pressing and making mistakes Paige can be there to pick up the W like Val did at 2016 Worlds.

 

[nothinbuttree]

Throwing a disc in a windy field trying to land it between some flags just doesn't do our sport justice, IMO. Man made boundaries don't have the same aesthetics as woods, lakes, and rivers.

Maybe this is just an ignorant newer player observation, but could the flags not be replaced by:

1) Chalk lines (say like in football)--boundaries more clearly defined and much more visible on TV I imagine, or
2) Some sort of plastic mesh material (thinking that orange construction mesh here---like highway workers use sometimes to surround a work area). True, this would interfere with rollers both GOING OB and coming back FROM being OB, but one can also argue true OB doesn't allow a roller to come back. If you roll one INTO water, or off a cliff, or into deep rough, it isn't coming back. The mesh could be just high enough to allow the disc to get over it. It would be a trade off for sure.

Obviously #2 would be more time intensive, but that mesh in rolled form can't be very expensive, and could be re-used. #1 wouldn't interfere with rollers at all, and would offer the additional advantage on rollers of knowing WHERE the disc went OB, because there would be a path through the chalk.

Or am I missing some obvious issues?

 

[Jugular]

#1. Being flat to the ground on course with any undulation it is more difficult to see than the flags.

#2 The labour involved to put up and take down that mesh and also storing it once "rolled up" again is enormous. I dont think you appreciate the enormity of that amount of material used to cover kilometres of OB lines.

 

[Rastnav]

#1. Being flat to the ground on course with any undulation it is more difficult to see than the flags.

#2 The labour involved to put up and take down that mesh and also storing it once "rolled up" again is enormous. I dont think you appreciate the enormity of that amount of material used to cover kilometres of OB lines.

The easy to see OB lines are the panels you frequently see put up around greens. I wonder what the labor and cost of those are? I think they are branded DGPT usually? I'm trying to remember if I've actually seen any that were commercially branded, but I could definitely see them being sponsored as well, which would potentially defray costs. Labor is obviously an issue, given that the tourney's are still incredibly reliant on volunteer labor.

But if, it was a TV event, that sponsored barrier could more than cover the cost of paid labor. The nice thing about those raised barriers is that they are "sided" as well, you know if you are looking at inbounds or out of bounds. You could even have color schemes, so both sides could be branded.

If rolling or skipping OB was a desired feature, you could still paint an actual line 2M inside the panels.

Where sidewalks are used as OB, you could use a paint scheme to clearly indicate that it was OB, and which side, or if it was two way. Again, that's an issue of cost and labor. Making those somehow commercially sponsored would be ideal. Although, any semi-permanent logos would be an issue I imagine.

I feel like TDs and the pro-tour most likely recognize that solving the issue for TV, if they/we can get more broadcast coverage, makes viewing the sport much more accessible. It's just a question of figuring out how to get it done, and make it work.

 

[biscoe]

I dislike walls in general and they are not practical when there are thousands of feet of OB to mark. Flags work fine for people actually in attendance. I think the "problem" will eventually be solved on the video production side with sone sort of overlays.

 

[ChrisWoj]

There is no way Paige Shue hasn't tried all of that. Just saying.

Paige Shue reminds me a bit of Valerie Jenkins. Doesn't crush it, but doesn't make mistakes. If Catrina and Pierce get into a firefight and start pressing and making mistakes Paige can be there to pick up the W like Val did at 2016 Worlds.

Former Women's World Distance Record Holder Val Jenkins?

 

[Discette]

There is no way Paige Shue hasn't tried all of that. Just saying.

Paige Shue reminds me a bit of Valerie Jenkins. Doesn't crush it, but doesn't make mistakes. If Catrina and Pierce get into a firefight and start pressing and making mistakes Paige can be there to pick up the W like Val did at 2016 Worlds.

Maybe just like 2018 World Champion Paige (Bjerkass) Shue?