What is next for Gateway?

[fatty mcbutterpants]

Fair enough if you are paying full retail price for the baskets. Once you are given any deal, by the manufacturer, seems like they would be more than entitled to ask for some compensation, in another way. You may not be able to come to terms with this manufacturer, but that is your choice. If the deal made no sense to you, sounds like you did the right thing by walking. Gateways job is to make money....period.

If my memory serves me correctly, we did not even get to talking about the cost of the baskets. What I was told happened in my first conversation with the people at Gateway. I basically stated that I wanted to purchase the baskets and then I was told their terms for doing business. The $3,000 I was told we would need to pay for a non-existent designer, along with having to give them credit for having nothing to do with the design of the course, was not worth demeaning the works of the locals so they could pad their resume.

As far as Gateways job is to make money, I agree. That is what makes it an issue. That is not what they did in any sense of that statement. They did not get the thousands of dollars that they would have gotten from the sale and the free advertising that having baskets installed gets. They did not try to just make money; they tried to get unearned credit for a course and lord from upon high like mighty arbiters of disc golf.

 

[fatty mcbutterpants]

Having reread, allow me to clarify:
There would have been no issue with "this course brought to you by Gateway" or something like that. The issue was the "this course designed by Dave McCormack" credit they wanted, when there has no credit deserved or earned.

 

[BENFTS]

I spoke with a few guys at Gateway and was told that over-mold putters are in the works.

 

[Mixed Bag Madness]

If my memory serves me correctly, we did not even get to talking about the cost of the baskets. What I was told happened in my first conversation with the people at Gateway. I basically stated that I wanted to purchase the baskets and then I was told their terms for doing business. The $3,000 I was told we would need to pay for a non-existent designer, along with having to give them credit for having nothing to do with the design of the course, was not worth demeaning the works of the locals so they could pad their resume.

As far as Gateways job is to make money, I agree. That is what makes it an issue. That is not what they did in any sense of that statement. They did not get the thousands of dollars that they would have gotten from the sale and the free advertising that having baskets installed gets. They did not try to just make money; they tried to get unearned credit for a course and lord from upon high like mighty arbiters of disc golf.

This may be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard about Gateway. "I'm calling because I would like to spend a nice chunk of money with you and have your baskets at my course."
"We'll need 3k for a designers fee even though we never even looked at your course and we also want co-credit for design on said course."
No wonder his own nephew who at one time he had legal custody over left his company. I know they like to puff over there but.....wow.....

 

[discdoh]

I am fairly certain that Fatty McRubberpants misinterpreted what Gateway was insinuating. I am sure David wouldn't ask for $3000 unless it was a justifiable expenditure. I believe that he just designed a course in Santa Fe. While I am not sure what any of the design costs were, there certainly is a cost involved with travel, design, and labor for the primary installation...he was there for over a week. Is that what the $3000 quote was for in your instance? Not sure, but it makes a whole lot more sense than him just blindly asking for you to give him a wad of cash for no reason. What it really comes down to is that if he sells you his permanent baskets, he requires his approval of your design for safety concerns no matter what. If there are legitimate safety concerns with your design, and you are unwilling to budge on the design, then Gateway Titans are not going in the ground.

 

[DriveCrusher2]

Alright, as for a safer sport, i.e nobody being hit with a disc. That is something you need to watch out for, if there are people ahead of you on the course, make sure they have finished the hole prior to you throwing or wait for them to gain ground on you.... pretty common sense right there. As for Vichy being a standard, there is a reason you have to fill an insurance form prior to playing it, it's also under new ownership and the guy is looking to make things easier to navigate there. Pedestrians should realize where they are at and there should be signs at the park that warn them. Course design could be key but, most courses have concrete pads and places where concrete has been placed in the ground to hold baskets, why would anyone tear up the concrete of these holes?? I can only think of one hole on my home course where the design is a bit of a hazard to the people on the next hole. That's it.

 

[fatty mcbutterpants]

Oh, I see what you did there. McRubberpants. Ha. You must be the funny one I ran into at the factory store.
Here is the problem with your fanboy speculation: There was nothing insinuated. It was pretty clear. I do not know what you think would be insinuated, as opposed to plainly spoken, in a conversation like that. This was a conversation held with parks board members and a few council members. It was on speakerphone and all parties interpreted the statements made the same way. So, while I appreciate your third-party defense, you are wrong in your assumptions concerning this.

They did not see any design plans when their terms were laid out, so there could be no reasonable assumption that there would be legitimate safety concerns.

Again, it wasn't approval that was asked for. I do not know if i would have reacted favorably to that, either, but what was asked for was design credit.

There is no justification for the money asked for. There was no significant travel needed, no installation needed, and no design needed . Just the baskets.

You are correct, Gateway Titans did not go into the ground. They have not gone into the ground on any of the other courses I have installed, either.

Are there any other issues you would like to address with your purely speculative perpspective?

 

[Dan Ensor]

I believe that he just designed a course in Santa Fe.

Which Santa Fe?


^Dave probably knew what he was getting himself in to, but didn't think he should just outright refuse to sell you baskets.

 

[fatty mcbutterpants]

What did he think he was getting into?

 

[Dan Ensor]

What did he think he was getting into?

Someone's first course ...

 

[Gennataos]

Which Santa Fe?

^Dave probably knew what he was getting himself in to, but didn't think he should just outright refuse to sell you baskets.

So you're suggesting Dave gave a ridiculous proposal on the assumption that it would be refused?

 

[fatty mcbutterpants]

Someone's first course ...

Why would you assume that was mentioned? That would not be pertinent to why I contacted Gateway. I do not recollect that being brought up, so I cannot say one way or the other, but you assume much to justify what you want to believe. I do mention in an earlier post that it was my first solo design, but it was not the first course i have helped on. I think that may be implied in the statement by my distinguishing that it was my first solo design.

But, let's play devils advocate for a minute. So, it is my first course, it is designed, we are ready to start putting in pads, etc., and he wants to give it a once-over for safety. Is that what is said? No (I do not recall anything pertaining to safety being said, actually). What is said is that they will required a design credit and fee to sell me baskets. I have read some speculation and conditional fabrications to justify this attempted pirating of credit, but nothing that has held up up minimal examination.
It is well within Gateway's right to have an operational stance like that. I do not begrudge them in their quest for safer disc golf; rather, i laud it. What they were demanding went well beyond safety, however.

 

[fatty mcbutterpants]

So you're suggesting Dave gave a ridiculous proposal on the assumption that it would be refused?

i believe that is what he is suggesting, and in his attempt to belittle me and defend Dave, he paints an unfavorable picture of Dave.

 

[Dan Ensor]

I'm suggesting that Dave gave a proposal that would be acceptable to him. There's no way for any of us to know what information Dave had or did not have. Maybe butter put 1's teepad in the middle of the archery range. That would make a designer fee reasonable.

 

[fatty mcbutterpants]

Again, inaccurate speculation is the iceberg to your logic Titanic. I can tell you that Dave would not have known the course layout, as we never even got to that point of discussion. Your point is invalid.
Tee pad 1 could have been in the middle of an archery range and the basket could have been located just on the other side of the National Guards ordinance disposal field, but that is only pertinent if he knew that at any point in the discussion, which he did not.

 

[Dan Ensor]

Again, inaccurate speculation is the iceberg to your logic Titanic. I can tell you that Dave would not have known the course layout, as we never even got to that point of discussion. Your point is invalid.
Tee pad 1 could have been in the middle of an archery range and the basket could have been located just on the other side of the National Guards ordinance disposal field, but that is only pertinent if he knew that at any point in the discussion, which he did not.

Maybe a third party informed Dave of your design before you talked to him.

Maybe Dave was concerned you weren't serious. The $3000 was more like a security deposit and the "baskets" would have been dirt cheap if the designing wasn't difficult.

And maybe Dave's name as co-designer would have been a good thing. Like having Houck's name is a reason people play courses.

Maybe you're just mad at Gateway, and are embellishing your story.

Maybe Dave's a dick, and wants to tank Gateway.

You never got a quote for the baskets, and reneged your request. So ... you really don't know what kind of deal you were being offered.

 

[fatty mcbutterpants]

Dan, I will address this point-by-point:

1. Highly doubtful, if not downright wrong. Only a few (2-3) ever knew the full layout. I kept the full layout close to my vest in order to protect my own intellectual property.

2. I am extremely confident that there was no ambiguity as to the intent of the phone call or what my own intent was in contacting Gateway about purchasing baskets immediately. I know that it was made clear that we had just received approval for the purchase of baskets, had the money, and were ready to purchase baskets within the week.

3. You are correct in that there potentially could have been benefits to having his name attached to the course, but to me that seems like I would have been prostituting the efforts of all the people that did help get the course in if I would have paid Gateway to put their name on it for doing nothing.

4. If I was mad at Gateway, why would they have been my first contact about the baskets? It was wholly my intent to use them because I liked their baskets and they were local. At the time, there was no plan B. It was going to be Gateway. I do not see where there is any room for embellishment in my tale. If you look at other posts, my story is not that unique, as a matter of fact. You are not doing a very good job of providing counterpoint to my statements because you are overlooking things that I have said. In my OP, I relayed what happened and then finished it with two positive comments about their products. Does that strike you as someone being vindictive or mad?

5. Highly unlikely and borderline idiotic, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and suppose that statement is intentionally reductio ad absurdum.

6. Did get a quote for the baskets over the phone. A quote is a non-binding agreement. Would you care to make a logical explanation of how I reneged on a quote? I do know what kind of "deal" I was being offered. A raw one.

 

[Dan Ensor]

we did not even get to talking about the cost of the baskets.

Sorry, I thought this information was accurate.

 

[ru4por]

Dan, I will address this point-by-point:

1. Highly doubtful, if not downright wrong. Only a few (2-3) ever knew the full layout. I kept the full layout close to my vest in order to protect my own intellectual property.

2. I am extremely confident that there was no ambiguity as to the intent of the phone call or what my own intent was in contacting Gateway about purchasing baskets immediately. I know that it was made clear that we had just received approval for the purchase of baskets, had the money, and were ready to purchase baskets within the week.

3. You are correct in that there potentially could have been benefits to having his name attached to the course, but to me that seems like I would have been prostituting the efforts of all the people that did help get the course in if I would have paid Gateway to put their name on it for doing nothing.

4. If I was mad at Gateway, why would they have been my first contact about the baskets? It was wholly my intent to use them because I liked their baskets and they were local. At the time, there was no plan B. It was going to be Gateway. I do not see where there is any room for embellishment in my tale. If you look at other posts, my story is not that unique, as a matter of fact. You are not doing a very good job of providing counterpoint to my statements because you are overlooking things that I have said. In my OP, I relayed what happened and then finished it with two positive comments about their products. Does that strike you as someone being vindictive or mad?

5. Highly unlikely and borderline idiotic, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and suppose that statement is intentionally reductio ad absurdum.

6. Did get a quote for the baskets over the phone. A quote is a non-binding agreement. Would you care to make a logical explanation of how I reneged on a quote? I do know what kind of "deal" I was being offered. A raw one.

Well this was my original question, addressing if a discount from shipped retail price was offered. So, I will again respond with my OP.

 

[greg_b_4]

If Gateway did think it was a bad layout why in God's name would they want their name attached to it?