What % of Disc Golfers Cheat

[Reniger]

Not really. I'm trying to let it go. Try to keep negativity out of my life... But I'm still annoyed.

 

[tampabay]

Not really. I'm trying to let it go. Try to keep negativity out of my life... But I'm still annoyed.

I think it's less about negativity and more about helping him be a better TD/Official. Feedback is valuable.

 

[Peter S]

I voted for about 1/2. However, it is mostly the - Some out of ignorance variety. I see a lot of foot faults during a round. Most I do not call as it seems innocent enough. Other times it seems people just don't know the rules.

There is one new pad that shares the pad with a sidewalk and there is a line for the blue tee to stop behind. It was my first time playing that pad and the group was all aware of where the line was. This one guy was about 6 feet past the line, made a nice throw and I called FOOT FAULT. He turns and says you are being an A** Hole. It was only our second hole of the day and I did not say anything to him or anyone else in the few minutes prior.

This same guy proceeded to throw next to (not behind) his mark the rest of the day. I did not correct him again, not my job and he was way behind me on the score.

 

[ru4por]

I play Grandmaster for the most part, and I see little to no cheating. Foot fault cheating is on those who don't call it.

 

[Agricolae]

I believe the number of deliberate cheaters is fairly low - 2-10% - and closer to 2% than 10%. Deliberate cheating, here, to include altering score cards, moving OB discs to IB, intentionally impeding competitors performance, deliberate foot faults, etc. Deliberate cheating is action with forethought to improve one's score in relation to the card or field.

If unintentional actions are included - foot faults from missing the mark on fairway run-ups and being off-the-mark on long stretches out of the rough - I'd put the number significantly higher at 11-30% and being closer to 30%.

 

[Consult20]

I played a tournament this summer with a kid who is known locally. Good kid, but doesn't know/doesn't care about the rules. He'd move his lie, walk in front of other players throwing, talk constantly, his phone actually rang as the leader on our card was teeing off, almost every putt in the circle was a falling putt, he even grabbed a basket as he was trying to hike over a pyramid basket while another player was putting, causing the basket to shift and the other player's putt hit the top lip of the cage. Granted, that player never should have putt while this kid was walking right next to the basket, but he was getting frustrated and he putt anyway. Moreover, the kid in question was caught twice in one round "forgetting" how many throws he had on a hole and trying to lower his score. By the end of the round he'd gotten 2 falling putt violations and 2 courtesy violations. Needless to say, the whole card of 5 was very upset. He'd been told rules politely at first, figuring he didn't know, then was given warnings, then finally violation strokes. (which he threw a fit over and protested) End of the round, he was reported to the TD, who said that this kid was in his leagues and club and that everyone knew that he didn't know or pay attention to rules and laughed it off. He even ended up taking the four violation strokes off the kid's score. I was livid. I mean, it's only a C-Tier AM2, but it was bad enough for a player to behave that way. I understand not knowing rules, but to be informed, continually violate, then get upset when reprimanded is ridiculous. The thing that REALLY got me was that the TD laughed it off and adjusted the kid's score. Never playing an event hosted by that group again.

TL;DR - Player violated rules and TD laughed it off and removed violation strokes from player's score because they were friends in the same leagues/club. :wall:

If I were on that card I'd have a major problem with the TD removing the violation strokes for that kid, or anyone, in a sanctioned tournament. The kid earned all his strokes, legit and penalty strokes, so he should be awarded all of them -- or better yet, just DQ him to let him know that type of conduct won't be tolerated.

 

[DanJon]

This question really depends on what division you are playing in.

And it seems that the OP can't get over the disc limit idea/thread and a point that was raised within.

With such a revolutionary change in rules (disc limit), many people said it would put an unnecessary burden on TD's to implement the rule.

Some said that there might be a few people that would abuse the rule.

OP seems to have taken that as disc golfers are cheats for the most part, and is now looking for evidence to support his position.

Perhaps he's asking the wrong question though.

The right question in my mind would be, what percentage of humans cheat (and is it human nature to do so)?

Any and every sport sees examples of cheating.

It's pretty short-sighted to just ask the question of disc golfers.

 

[Keller]

I think the percentage of people who "purposely cheat" is pretty low. I've only known a few and one is so blatant that even the suggestion that he's cheating sets him into a rage. I simply quit playing with him.

However, the percentage that gain an advantage out of ignorance of the rules is pretty high from my experience. For instance, I was guilty of falling putts. Got in the habit when I first started and played a lot by my self. I would just putt and start walking up to the basket. It was a hard habit to break and correcting it threw my timing off as my follow through was part of my walking forward.

 

[JC17393]

I voted for about 1/2. However, it is mostly the - Some out of ignorance variety. I see a lot of foot faults during a round. Most I do not call as it seems innocent enough. Other times it seems people just don't know the rules.

There is one new pad that shares the pad with a sidewalk and there is a line for the blue tee to stop behind. It was my first time playing that pad and the group was all aware of where the line was. This one guy was about 6 feet past the line, made a nice throw and I called FOOT FAULT. He turns and says you are being an A** Hole. It was only our second hole of the day and I did not say anything to him or anyone else in the few minutes prior.

This same guy proceeded to throw next to (not behind) his mark the rest of the day. I did not correct him again, not my job and he was way behind me on the score.

If we're talking about a competitive event, especially a sanctioned one, then ignorance of the rules should not be permission to not follow the rules. A player that is consistently foot faulting isn't going to correct himself and play by the rules if it's never pointed out to him. Make a call or at least say something, but don't ignore it because it was "innocent enough".

To the bolded in your last paragraph, yes it is your job. If it's a tournament (or league for that matter), everyone is responsible for observing everyone else to ensure rules compliance. Ignoring violations out of a fear of confrontation or being the "a**hole" only makes the problem worse.


To the topic at hand, blatant cheating (pencil whipping, improving one's lie, etc) doesn't seem to be a very common thing. Rule breaking (hesitate to call it cheating because it is often unintentional) such as foot faulting is far more prevalent. Basically any rule that players don't find that consequential is going to be abused by most players, knowingly or not.

The unfortunate fact of the matter is that the "eh, that violation isn't worth calling" attitude is way too common. There's a culture of bending rules in the game because there's no fear of consequence. If there was more effort to enforce the rules, there'd be more effort to abide by them.

 

[tampabay]

If we're talking about a competitive event, especially a sanctioned one, then ignorance of the rules should not be permission to not follow the rules. A player that is consistently foot faulting isn't going to correct himself and play by the rules if it's never pointed out to him. Make a call or at least say something, but don't ignore it because it was "innocent enough".

To the bolded in your last paragraph, yes it is your job. If it's a tournament (or league for that matter), everyone is responsible for observing everyone else to ensure rules compliance. Ignoring violations out of a fear of confrontation or being the "a**hole" only makes the problem worse.


To the topic at hand, blatant cheating (pencil whipping, improving one's lie, etc) doesn't seem to be a very common thing. Rule breaking (hesitate to call it cheating because it is often unintentional) such as foot faulting is far more prevalent. Basically any rule that players don't find that consequential is going to be abused by most players, knowingly or not.

The unfortunate fact of the matter is that the "eh, that violation isn't worth calling" attitude is way too common. There's a culture of bending rules in the game because there's no fear of consequence. If there was more effort to enforce the rules, there'd be more effort to abide by them.

I agree with this. In reality it's really awkward that smoking...various products...is against PDGA rules. If you want to become disliked really fast, point that out to your card mates. But JC has a point, the sport is to be policed by peers. Every person you don't call for foot faults...you are furthering in their head that they aren't wrong. You then get people claiming "I've played in 400 PDGA events and I've never been called."

:\

 

[Stardoggy]

I agree with this. In reality it's really awkward that smoking...various products...is against PDGA rules. If you want to become disliked really fast, point that out to your card mates. But JC has a point, the sport is to be policed by peers. Every person you don't call for foot faults...you are furthering in their head that they aren't wrong. You then get people claiming "I've played in 400 PDGA events and I've never been called."

:\

I've pointed out the smoking thing several times in tournaments. If you want to do it, go play casual. Same with cigarettes. Sorry if you think I'm a douche, but part of the reason I enter sanctioned tournaments instead of non-sanctioned is to get away from that nonsense in a competitive atmosphere.

I'd love to crack a few beers during a tourney round, but I don't. It's called self-control.

 

[SonicGuy]

Intentional cheating is a minor problem, insignificant number of people trying to pencil whip and whatnot.

Unintentional cheating is another matter. I am willing to bet that the vast majority of players will unintentionally violate a rule during the course of a round. Missing spots is the most common. I don't know what it is but DG players are mentally incapable of judging the angle to the basket vs. the angle to the fairway when placing their foot "behind" the lie.

 

[sillybizz]

Just don't let your wives find out, gentlemen.

 

[SonicGuy]

Just don't let your wives find out, gentlemen.

I took my ring off at a store to try out a golf club in the simulator. I completely forgot about it and the next guy in the bay found it. When I got it from him he said "good thing I got this back to you, your wife would have thought you were cheating." My response was "I hope she would think that, if she knew I was hitting golf balls she would kill me!"

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

I thought about reporting him, however, he is truly a great guy who does a lot for local courses, tournaments, and helps run clinics and kids events. I don't wish any ill harm to him, but I won't participate in his events for a while because of his overlooking issues because of acquaintance. I'm annoyed, but at the end of the day, he's still a very positive force for the local scene

TD integrity is more important than player integrity, when it comes to rules enforcement.

This is the person that is primarily responsible for rules enforcement. He SHOULD be held to the highest standards.

You should have a 1 on 1 talk with him. If that doesn't sink in then you should feel ZERO guilt in reporting it, regardless of how much good he's done.

 

[Reniger]

If I were on that card I'd have a major problem with the TD removing the violation strokes for that kid, or anyone, in a sanctioned tournament. The kid earned all his strokes, legit and penalty strokes, so he should be awarded all of them -- or better yet, just DQ him to let him know that type of conduct won't be tolerated.

I actually requested he be DQ'd for his temper tantrum after being given his second stroke and continual attitude afterward for additional violations. The TD just laughed it off. I didn't find out until later that he'd removed the violation strokes. He was DFL, so I wasn't terribly concerned with his score because it didn't effect anyone else's cash, but I agree that the TD was way out of line. I haven't seen him since early summer, but I will have a 1 on 1 with him next time I do. It really sours the sport to have a TD supporting bad play and bad behavior. It's too bad, because the guy really does a ton for the local scene and other than the issue with that one bad apple, I've never had any bad experience or heard anything but praise for him.

 

[BrotherDave]

Pretty much everyone, the rule book is full of silliness that is ignored for speed of play/inconsequential to scoring issues. I would say at least 90% of people putt out of turn and over 50% throw out of turn. Unmarked discs, missed run-ups, barely illegal stance violations, etc.

 

[lyleoross]

This question really depends on what division you are playing in.

And it seems that the OP can't get over the disc limit idea/thread and a point that was raised within.

With such a revolutionary change in rules (disc limit), many people said it would put an unnecessary burden on TD's to implement the rule.

Some said that there might be a few people that would abuse the rule.

OP seems to have taken that as disc golfers are cheats for the most part, and is now looking for evidence to support his position.

Perhaps he's asking the wrong question though.

The right question in my mind would be, what percentage of humans cheat (and is it human nature to do so)?

Any and every sport sees examples of cheating.

It's pretty short-sighted to just ask the question of disc golfers.

DanJon,

More than any other poster, when you hit the nail, you do so squarely. Thanks! I'll be smiling a good bit of the day.

 

[Stardoggy]

Pretty much everyone, the rule book is full of silliness that is ignored for speed of play/inconsequential to scoring issues. I would say at least 90% of people putt out of turn and over 50% throw out of turn. Unmarked discs, missed run-ups, barely illegal stance violations, etc.

I feel like your putt and throw out of turn numbers are quite high, at least around here.

The whole "marking of discs" thing is silly to me. How often will two people be throwing the same disc, in the same color, with the same stamp, on the same hole, and end up close enough to each other to have any instance of confusion? Even then, nearly every disc will have some sort of distinguishing feature, be it through wear or otherwise.

I've been on exactly one card where a guy had the same disc/color combination I had...but mine had some red spots on it. Maybe in 1992, when there were not nearly as many discs out there, could this have been a problem.

 

[lyleoross]

It seems to me that there are three forms of cheating. Duh cheating - I haven't a clue so I did it. Whoops cheating - I know it's wrong, but I don't think it's important or it doesn't seem to impact the outcome, therefore I'm gonna do it. No one is looking cheating - this is gonna possibly shave a stroke for me so I'm gonna do it because no one is watching.

The category being disucssed here, based on the "lets limit disc count thread," is whoops cheating. That categoy sits at about about 10% for me. Between 15 and 20% in league play, and about 5% in sanctioned tournament play. And yes, I think league play, where you are playing for money, should be held to a high standard.

For Duh cheating - in sanctioned play - it goes away pretty quickly because card mates let you know. No one is looking cheating, 1 to 2%. That means in a 100 person tournament, one to two persons, per round does something they know they shouldn't, that matters to the score. It's 2% to 3% in league play - no one likes pencil whippers - guys who can't count their strokes on a regular basis - disc movers - etc., anywhere.

Now that I've pulled that out of my backside, the actual number doesn't matter. Every opportunity that you make for players to justify fudging the rules, when that opportunity is unecessary, seems like asking for trouble. We want players to take the rules seriously, not add in rules that beg to be broken or that are hard to enforce in a reasonable manner.

If the disc limit rule had been there on day one, players would have dealt with it. Trying to add it in at this time seems like a firestorm waitin' to happen.