When can you change par?

[blake833]

There's some holes at my local course that average over an entire stroke above par, about 7 or 8 that are at least .75 strokes above par. At that point to do you just say the par is wrong, and calculate your score-to-par by an adjusted course par?

 

[Disc Golf Doctor]

Really depends on who you are taking the stats from. If they are all 1000 rated players, sure. Par isn't really all that important in the end, just compare your score to what you typically get and what others you are competitive with get.

 

[Jenga54]

There's some holes at my local course that average over an entire stroke above par, about 7 or 8 that are at least .75 strokes above par. At that point to do you just say the par is wrong, and calculate your score-to-par by an adjusted course par?

wut


Do you mean the marked par for each hole seems too high? Some courses are designed for Green, Red, White, Blue, and/or Gold level play, so the same hole could be a par 5 for Green level and Par 3 for Gold level players, just for example.

The Par isn't "wrong" your scores are either above, equal to, or below the marked par.

 

[Steve West]

Unless you're in a tournament, use whatever personal par you want.

Average doesn't matter. For each hole, pick the score you'd feel good about, but can manage somewhat often. Call that your own par.

When you start scoring below that (in total), set a new personal par.

 

[XC_Eddy]

Unless you're in a tournament, use whatever personal par you want.

Average doesn't matter. For each hole, pick the score you'd feel good about, but can manage somewhat often. Call that your own par.

When you start scoring below that (in total), set a new personal par.

That's pretty reasonable. Here I was expecting you to post a graph to explain when to change par.

 

[teemkey]

When you make & mount new tee signs.

 

[SD86]

There's some holes at my local course that average over an entire stroke above par, about 7 or 8 that are at least .75 strokes above par. At that point to do you just say the par is wrong, and calculate your score-to-par by an adjusted course par?

That's getting into the realm of handicap, who the par is set for (expert players? etc.), and such stuff.

There's a course near where I live where par was set long before the high speed drivers came out. It's fun getting eagles on the Par 5s, but I know that by today's standards those holes should be set at par 4.

 

[Steve West]

That's pretty reasonable. Here I was expecting you to post a graph to explain when to change par.

Well, if you insist. Set par to your third-best round ever.

 

[DanJon]

There's some holes at my local course that average over an entire stroke above par, about 7 or 8 that are at least .75 strokes above par. At that point to do you just say the par is wrong, and calculate your score-to-par by an adjusted course par?

Well first you have to argue about it on DGCR for a couple of days.

And then Steve West will make a graph.

We are already halfway there apparently.

 

[blake833]

So what I mean is, here are the stats for one hole after 135 recorded rounds (6 of which are me):

Birdies or better: 0
Par: 18
Bogey: 59
Double Bogey: 49
Triple Bogey: 9

There are more than twice as many double bogeys as par. It's a 442ft hole through trees, out of bounds just to the right of the teepad, and angled diagonally into the fairway, hole is shaped like a wide-angle 7. The people playing this course are no slouches, with a guy who can park an open 350ft hole no problem being only a middle of the road player out here (I'm below that, recording nothing but pars on that hole). And there are still only 18 pars, out of 135. That's barely over 13%. And there are many other holes like that on the course, where the number of bogeys is at least double the number of pars, and 10 holes with 4 or fewer birdies, after at least 120 rounds (5 of which have NEVER been birdied). I think that's ok up to a point, but you should expect to maybe get lucky once, or have a player who can drive 400ft also be able to birdie holes less than 350 at least once (two holes in the 340s have never been birdied, based on a par 3, in the woods).

It just seems crazy to me that what seems to be expected out of par is only reached 15-25% of the time (generously). I understand that you score what you score and that's unaffected by par, but making heroic shots to save bogey on some of these holes just makes you feel worse about your playing until you learn that 87% of players score over par. And that stat isn't on the tee signs, and you can only find it if you look at the advanced stats on this website (a great resource for nerds like me)

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Perchance Steve's mulled this par thing over a bit...

When it comes to setting par, you might wanna take his advice. I'm not necessarily saying to follow it blindly, but...

Given his diligence, the amount of time he's spent digging into it, and the amount of data he's amassed, it's unlikely you're going to think of something he hasn't considered.

 

[scarpfish]

So what I mean is, here are the stats for one hole after 135 recorded rounds (6 of which are me):

Birdies or better: 0
Par: 18
Bogey: 59
Double Bogey: 49
Triple Bogey: 9

There are more than twice as many double bogeys as par. It's a 442ft hole through trees, out of bounds just to the right of the teepad, and angled diagonally into the fairway, hole is shaped like a wide-angle 7. The people playing this course are no slouches, with a guy who can park an open 350ft hole no problem being only a middle of the road player out here (I'm below that, recording nothing but pars on that hole). And there are still only 18 pars, out of 135. That's barely over 13%. And there are many other holes like that on the course, where the number of bogeys is at least double the number of pars, and 10 holes with 4 or fewer birdies, after at least 120 rounds (5 of which have NEVER been birdied). I think that's ok up to a point, but you should expect to maybe get lucky once, or have a player who can drive 400ft also be able to birdie holes less than 350 at least once (two holes in the 340s have never been birdied, based on a par 3, in the woods).

It just seems crazy to me that what seems to be expected out of par is only reached 15-25% of the time (generously). I understand that you score what you score and that's unaffected by par, but making heroic shots to save bogey on some of these holes just makes you feel worse about your playing until you learn that 87% of players score over par. And that stat isn't on the tee signs, and you can only find it if you look at the advanced stats on this website (a great resource for nerds like me)

You know, I think if you gave consideration to the fact that the rounds entered on this site, and the "advanced stats" derived from those round entries are the aggregate work of hundreds of individuals who may or may not care that they are entering their data correctly, and such may affect any downflow results. The same could be said for whomever entered the pars on the hole info page. Garbage in, garbage out. There are probably thousands of incorrectly entered rounds on here, (including possibly some of my own).

Process that a bit, and see if what you're going on about in that quote still bothers you.

 

[zontar]

if par is only achieved 15-25% of the time by various players, it is a "tough course to make par". my view of it anyway. play it and have fun or don't play it.....:|

 

[Turnipseed]

Just as there is no such thing as universal par, there is no such thing as a birdie/bogey etc. If a little digit on a sign can make you feel bad about your play, you're doing it wrong.

I'm mapping holes and making tee signs for a new course right now. There are no pars.

 

[DiscFifty]

Yah..the entire par/birdie thing is getting old..the more I play this game. The more important thing to me when I play a course is hopefully there are 2 tees for each hole providing appropriate challenge for novice and advanced players.

 

[Cgkdisc]

So what I mean is, here are the stats for one hole after 135 recorded rounds (6 of which are me):

Birdies or better: 0
Par: 18
Bogey: 59
Double Bogey: 49
Triple Bogey: 9

There are more than twice as many double bogeys as par. It's a 442ft hole through trees, out of bounds just to the right of the teepad, and angled diagonally into the fairway, hole is shaped like a wide-angle 7. The people playing this course are no slouches, with a guy who can park an open 350ft hole no problem being only a middle of the road player out here (I'm below that, recording nothing but pars on that hole). And there are still only 18 pars, out of 135. That's barely over 13%. And there are many other holes like that on the course, where the number of bogeys is at least double the number of pars, and 10 holes with 4 or fewer birdies, after at least 120 rounds (5 of which have NEVER been birdied). I think that's ok up to a point, but you should expect to maybe get lucky once, or have a player who can drive 400ft also be able to birdie holes less than 350 at least once (two holes in the 340s have never been birdied, based on a par 3, in the woods).

It just seems crazy to me that what seems to be expected out of par is only reached 15-25% of the time (generously). I understand that you score what you score and that's unaffected by par, but making heroic shots to save bogey on some of these holes just makes you feel worse about your playing until you learn that 87% of players score over par. And that stat isn't on the tee signs, and you can only find it if you look at the advanced stats on this website (a great resource for nerds like me)

I'm guessing the holes with this problem are labeled "par 3"? Perhaps every hole on the course is a par 3? If so, it sounds a bit like old school thinking where every hole is par 3 no matter how long or tough.

 

[biscoe]

It's a 442ft hole through trees, out of bounds just to the right of the teepad, and angled diagonally into the fairway, hole is shaped like a wide-angle 7

Par 4 based on metrics other than scoring averages. Scoring confirms.

 

[biscoe]

two holes in the 340s have never been birdied, based on a par 3, in the woods

barring being severely uphill or having severe doglegs (in which case par 4 is possible) more likely bad holes than anything else.

 

[DiscGolfCraig]

It's actually a Par 2. He's pointing out only 15% of players have deuced this 442-foot hole. Sounds like a humble brag to me.

 

[Steve West]

So what I mean is, here are the stats for one hole after 135 recorded rounds (6 of which are me):

Birdies or better: 0
Par: 18
Bogey: 59
Double Bogey: 49
Triple Bogey: 9...

So, par is now 3? (Yes, it makes a difference.)