Disc Golf Planet dot Tv

[wake911]

That's why I think that the live broadcast is simply too much for DG right now. It's a cool idea, but the restrictions that live coverage places on them is reducing the quality of the product they're putting out.

Personally, the fact that the coverage is live is maybe #12 on my list of what I'm looking for in tournament coverage.

Look at what lcgm8 (user on youtube) puts out for free. He's filming with a single camera, and releasing the videos well after the tournament takes place. But it's a far better product. The production value makes it feel clean and professional. You're constantly kept up to speed with strokes and distance. Would it be cool if there was commentary and video of a commentator sitting at a booth? I guess so. But it's not all that important.

Look at what comedians like Louis C.K. or Joe Rogan are doing now. They're releasing their own 1-hour specials on their own website. You can paypal $5 or $10 or whatever and you're watching what you used to have to have HBO or have bought an actual DVD to see.

Here's the formula for a great DG tournament coverage video:

1) Stop filling 1/2 the video with highlights and near-aces from Amateur players. Film only the lead card, the last two rounds. Hell, just the final round with the lead card. Suddenly you don't need a dozen cameras, nor do you need to pay your guys for 3 days of coverage. 2 HD cameras, two guys.

2) Take a week to trim the footage, add in some graphics to show scores, the hole layout, distance to pin, etc.

3) Make it widely available. Release it online for a fee. Use a simple site layout. DGplanets site is horrible to navigate. I could care less about the history of your company, I don't want to see teasers or promos for the next big tournament. I want to be able to find the video I want and quickly.

So here's your cost breakdown.

Fixed startup costs:
2 HD cameras = $3000 or so
1 PC for editing = $2000 with software
Site build, hosting for a year & paypal usability = $2000
Total = $7000

Unfixed costs:
2 people's travel expenses = $1000 per tournament
2 people labor cost ($20/hr @ 10 hrs filming * 2 people) = $400
1 person's editing time ($20/hr @ 40 hours edit time) = $800
Total = $2200 per tournament covered

Cost per event covered:
1 tournament annually = $9200 per tournament
10 tournaments annually = $2900 per tournament
12 tournaments annually (one release per month) = $2780 per tournament

Say you release one video per month.
@ $4.99 per video download, you need 556 downloads to break even
@ $9.99 per video download, you need 278 downloads to break even

And when I say you're breaking even, you're still paying yourself and another guy $20 per hour for your labor. So it's not like you're doing it for free.

And that's without any commercials or sponsors of any type.

The Youtube user I mentioned before, lcgm8, pulled in 69,812 views for the final round of the Scandinavian Open. That's 1/251 views you'd need to break even @ 10 bucks per download.

All it would take is a couple of motivated folks, who already have the cameras, already have the computer (and skills) and who take the risk to do well.

Do 1 tourney for free (or maybe do round 1 for free, but finals and final 9 is pay) to give a taste of what you'll get when you purchase.

All I know is i paid into discgolfplanet, got the worst produced DVD i've ever seen in the mail (2012 usdgc, basically unwatchable it's such a crappy burn) and i would much rather watch a number of peoples videos from you tube.

If anyone steps up and starts now making fantastic, regular videos, they could go somewhere with it. The genre is COMPLETELY wide open.

Disc golf needs the edited videos first, until the benefit outweighs the cost to produce live, that will be the best. If I had the tools, I would be motivated to do this, but can't afford the start-up capital to get the cameras.

 

[dashiellx]

1) Stop filling 1/2 the video with highlights and near-aces from Amateur players. Film only the lead card, the last two rounds. Hell, just the final round with the lead card. Suddenly you don't need a dozen cameras, nor do you need to pay your guys for 3 days of coverage. 2 HD cameras, two guys.

2) Take a week to trim the footage, add in some graphics to show scores, the hole layout, distance to pin, etc.

3) Make it widely available. Release it online for a fee. Use a simple site layout. DGplanets site is horrible to navigate. I could care less about the history of your company, I don't want to see teasers or promos for the next big tournament. I want to be able to find the video I want and quickly.

So here's your cost breakdown.

Fixed startup costs:
2 HD cameras = $3000 or so
1 PC for editing = $2000 with software
Site build, hosting for a year & paypal usability = $2000
Total = $7000

Unfixed costs:
2 people's travel expenses = $1000 per tournament
2 people labor cost ($20/hr @ 10 hrs filming * 2 people) = $400
1 person's editing time ($20/hr @ 40 hours edit time) = $800
Total = $2200 per tournament covered

Cost per event covered:
1 tournament annually = $9200 per tournament
10 tournaments annually = $2900 per tournament
12 tournaments annually (one release per month) = $2780 per tournament

Say you release one video per month.
@ $4.99 per video download, you need 556 downloads to break even
@ $9.99 per video download, you need 278 downloads to break even

And when I say you're breaking even, you're still paying yourself and another guy $20 per hour for your labor. So it's not like you're doing it for free.

And that's without any commercials or sponsors of any type.

The Youtube user I mentioned before, lcgm8, pulled in 69,812 views for the final round of the Scandinavian Open. That's 1/251 views you'd need to break even @ 10 bucks per download.

I like your ideas, however you are drastically underestimating the hourly rate of camera operators and an editor. Professionally, those jobs are union gigs and thus union wages. Additionally, I don't think you really took into account the cost of transporting equipment.

 

[burdphil]

If I'm the PDGA, this is what I would do...

1) Call Marty McGee.

2) Offer to pay his expenses and a small fee if he would agree to fly to the NT events and film them.

3) Have Marty upload his edited coverage to a PDGA YouTube channel.

4) Link to the resulting awesomeness on the PDGA website.

5) Sit back and watch the views pile up while saving beau coup $$$.

 

[SirRaph]

I like your ideas, however you are drastically underestimating the hourly rate of camera operators and an editor. Professionally, those jobs are union gigs and thus union wages. Additionally, I don't think you really took into account the cost of transporting equipment.

I was thinking more of the site/business owner being one of the photographers as well as the editor. And one disc-golf-minded buddy running the second camera. Or you could hire a camera man at each site. I don't think that a DG video company could afford any union or established photographers.

In terms of equipment transportation, I'm thinking 2 cameras, handheld size, capable of some mild optical zoom and digital HD recording. Toss in a couple collapsible tripods and some SD cards and you're good. You could transport that type of equipment in a carry-on. The tech for video has become so small and so cheap. That's why I'm thinking it's feasible.

I'm 100% sure there are some costs I'm not accounting for there. The point I was hoping to illustrate though was that very high quality coverage could be done without attempting all these elaborate aspects, (live streaming, live commentary at a booth, etc.) With video tech being so capable and so cheap, it being so cheap and easy to host a website capable of hosting video, disc golf being so easy to film, and so many powerful video editing software options (some freeware). It seems like it could be done.

 

[NOStheBOSS]

I was thinking more of the site/business owner being one of the photographers as well as the editor. And one disc-golf-minded buddy running the second camera. Or you could hire a camera man at each site. I don't think that a DG video company could afford any union or established photographers.

In terms of equipment transportation, I'm thinking 2 cameras, handheld size, capable of some mild optical zoom and digital HD recording. Toss in a couple collapsible tripods and some SD cards and you're good. You could transport that type of equipment in a carry-on. The tech for video has become so small and so cheap. That's why I'm thinking it's feasible.

I'm 100% sure there are some costs I'm not accounting for there. The point I was hoping to illustrate though was that very high quality coverage could be done without attempting all these elaborate aspects, (live streaming, live commentary at a booth, etc.) With video tech being so capable and so cheap, it being so cheap and easy to host a website capable of hosting video, disc golf being so easy to film, and so many powerful video editing software options (some freeware). It seems like it could be done.

Exactly. When I'm bored, I think about what I would do if I won the lottery. One thing I came up with was hosting the highest payout tournament ever (1,000,000 purse) and making sure a high quality tournament DVD or internet video was made. I would probably just hire CCDG, lcgm8, and Marty to collaborate knowing they have the experience and mindset to make great videos even with no budget.

 

[SirRaph]

Exactly. When I'm bored, I think about what I would do if I won the lottery. One thing I came up with was hosting the highest payout tournament ever (1,000,000 purse) and making sure a high quality tournament DVD or internet video was made. I would probably just hire CCDG, lcgm8, and Marty to collaborate knowing they have the experience and mindset to make great videos even with no budget.

Maybe the internet has me spoiled, but when I'm sitting at the house, wanting to get my DG fix via video, it boggles my mind that I can't find new videos on any place other than youtube.

I find myself searching on amazon.com and such just grasping at straws like, "I HAVE SOME MONEY HERE. I'D LIKE TO WATCH SOME DISC GOLF. WOULD ANYBODY LIKE TO TAKE MY MONEY?!"

 

[Streets]

If I'm the PDGA, this is what I would do...

1) Call Marty McGee.

2) Offer to pay his expenses and a small fee if he would agree to fly to the NT events and film them.

3) Have Marty upload his edited coverage to a PDGA YouTube channel.

4) Link to the resulting awesomeness on the PDGA website.

5) Sit back and watch the views pile up while saving beau coup $$$.

This, and not just Marty. Contract out to local filmers like MurderMike, CCDG, and whoever does Midwest/Mountain filming. They're editing, music choice, commentary etc. is 10x what DGP has right now.

^I think SpinTV operates a model similar to this and what they have been producing is solid.

 

[biscoe]

i agree completely but what would Duesler do in that case?

 

[coupe]

i agree completely but what would Duesler do in that case?

Go back to being spokesman for Valley Swim Club?

 

[biscoe]

careful- that remark is somewhat off-color! some may find its complexion offensive!

 

[kerplunk]

Hopefully dgptv will listen to the feedback and never do this format again. I haven't watched it, but I don't need to eat a piece of poop to know it tastes bad.

And after all, look how well they have corrected the choppy video and volume fluctuation issues :|

I appreciate what they are trying to do, but as many others have said it seems they could do it much better, and I would gladly pay $5-10 up-front if I was confident the coverage would be decent. Heck, I would pay up front once or twice just on the promise that the coverage would be better.

 

[Old Bassman]

I will continue to support DGP.tv. They said they were going to try a new format this weekend. They did. True to word.

I have worked in various parts of show biz and production for decades.
They have been using LIVE as their format and it is the hardest thing to do. Mistakes are easy...
There were mistakes made.
When you turn your product over to another company (Streaming, radio, etc.) things can happen that are out of your control.

 

[anathematize]

That's why I think that the live broadcast is simply too much for DG right now. It's a cool idea, but the restrictions that live coverage places on them is reducing the quality of the product they're putting out.
<Rest of massive post>

I'm right with you. I don't think they are ready for live or have the budget to do it correctly. I was just trying to offer some perspective on just how difficult (and expensive) it can be to do it right.

I'd take some well edited vids with good graphics and commentary a week or 2 after the tournament. No qualms here.

The content that people like marty, murdermike, etc are putting out proves that it doesn't take a massive budget to deliver the goods. I DO wish they would spend a bit more money on their cameras/lenses but thats mostly a nitpicky observation.

 

[Donald Duck]

If DGPTV is having budget problems, they should simply charge 5 or 10 dollars per event. Maybe for a big event like worlds they should even charge 15 or 20. I think they could get at least 1000 viewers per event, which should be more than enough when also including money from sponsors. However, I don't think that the budget is the problem.

 

[mullethead326]

Ultimate Analogy

Ultimate has a slightly more advanced level of coverage, with 6 games from the recent College Nationals broadcast on ESPN3 and the finals replayed on ESPNU.

In about 2003-4, Ultivillage started covering some of the major tournaments and filming in about 240p. Starting in about 2006, a $10 subscription got you a 1-year membership to view all of their videos, which were usually about 5-6 games a tournament of prime matchups. They kept the hype up with some really good highlight films and mixtapes. Some of these tournaments were subsidized by the UPA.

However, they upgraded their equipment a little bit, but the coverage stayed about the same. Grainy livestreams, pretty solid commentary, but there was obvious room for improvement. Teams began carrying their own cameras and getting game footage, some of which was posted online in its full form, some in just highlight films (both for teams and for individual players).

In 2011, NexGen, a startup out of the Portland area by Oregon grad Kevin Minderhout, took a team of college all-stars on the NexGen Tour, barnstorming around the country to play some of the best club teams in the country. Every game, except for the two in Canada (which had some connectivity issues), had a free livestream, and $5/game or $15 for the whole package of 12 or so to view on demand. All of the games were filmed in HD, and it was pretty much the best presentation anyone had ever seen of ultimate. They got a deal to stream 5 games live on Youtube from Club Nationals last October, and they were again very well made. They also do $15 packages for games from two of the biggest college tournaments each year.

Starting around 2010 and 2012, respectively, Skyd Magazine and Ultiworld, started blogging about ultimate, attending tournaments and filming 2-4 games. Skyd has remained free, while Ultiworld usually has a $3-5 paywall per game. I think they all make enough to break even, with some tournaments subsidizing their travel costs to promote their coverage and lure sponsorships.

All this to say that DGP.TV is lagging behind what is possible, the same way Ultivillage did (and UV is basically gone). There is a market for good production of niche sports, and this one isn't even close to saturated. DG is more complicated than a field sport in that you have to move around a good bit, which is why the Marty McGee model works a little better than the livestream one. If I were into video and I wanted to promote my tournament and get the best players to come, I would pay a local videographer to do some comparable coverage and have it online within a week or two. If I were wanting to get paid to film, well... I'd start pitching it to TDs.

 

[anathematize]

If DGPTV is having budget problems, they should simply charge 5 or 10 dollars per event. Maybe for a big event like worlds they should even charge 15 or 20. I think they could get at least 1000 viewers per event, which should be more than enough when also including money from sponsors. However, I don't think that the budget is the problem.

Chicken -> Egg -> Chicken.

You simply cannot charge people for content when you haven't proven that you can even provide it.

Most people aren't stupid enough to toss cash down on 'faith' alone outside of organized religion.

 

[onemilemore]

If DGPTV is having budget problems, they should simply charge 5 or 10 dollars per event. Maybe for a big event like worlds they should even charge 15 or 20. I think they could get at least 1000 viewers per event, which should be more than enough when also including money from sponsors. However, I don't think that the budget is the problem.

Where is everyone pulling this magic 1,000 number of viewers from? I am pretty confident the most users ever on this site at one time is less than that. And it is free here. I think this is a gross overestimation of DG's audience.

EDIT: I checked. 945 users is the most online ever on this FREE site.

Ultimate has a slightly more advanced level of coverage, with 6 games from the recent College Nationals broadcast on ESPN3 and the finals replayed on ESPNU.

In about 2003-4, Ultivillage started covering some of the major tournaments and filming in about 240p. Starting in about 2006, a $10 subscription got you a 1-year membership to view all of their videos, which were usually about 5-6 games a tournament of prime matchups. They kept the hype up with some really good highlight films and mixtapes. Some of these tournaments were subsidized by the UPA.

However, they upgraded their equipment a little bit, but the coverage stayed about the same. Grainy livestreams, pretty solid commentary, but there was obvious room for improvement. Teams began carrying their own cameras and getting game footage, some of which was posted online in its full form, some in just highlight films (both for teams and for individual players).

In 2011, NexGen, a startup out of the Portland area by Oregon grad Kevin Minderhout, took a team of college all-stars on the NexGen Tour, barnstorming around the country to play some of the best club teams in the country. Every game, except for the two in Canada (which had some connectivity issues), had a free livestream, and $5/game or $15 for the whole package of 12 or so to view on demand. All of the games were filmed in HD, and it was pretty much the best presentation anyone had ever seen of ultimate. They got a deal to stream 5 games live on Youtube from Club Nationals last October, and they were again very well made. They also do $15 packages for games from two of the biggest college tournaments each year.

Starting around 2010 and 2012, respectively, Skyd Magazine and Ultiworld, started blogging about ultimate, attending tournaments and filming 2-4 games. Skyd has remained free, while Ultiworld usually has a $3-5 paywall per game. I think they all make enough to break even, with some tournaments subsidizing their travel costs to promote their coverage and lure sponsorships.

All this to say that DGP.TV is lagging behind what is possible, the same way Ultivillage did (and UV is basically gone). There is a market for good production of niche sports, and this one isn't even close to saturated. DG is more complicated than a field sport in that you have to move around a good bit, which is why the Marty McGee model works a little better than the livestream one. If I were into video and I wanted to promote my tournament and get the best players to come, I would pay a local videographer to do some comparable coverage and have it online within a week or two. If I were wanting to get paid to film, well... I'd start pitching it to TDs.

The advantage that ultimate has is that it is in a controlled setting that does not require as much mobility as disc golf. I would imagine this lends itself to being able to capture better footage and provide quality coverage for cheaper.

 

[SirRaph]

The advantage that ultimate has is that it is in a controlled setting that does not require as much mobility as disc golf. I would imagine this lends itself to being able to capture better footage and provide quality coverage for cheaper.

I'm not a photographer, but I disagree there. Disc golf is played over a larger area, but the camera man knows ahead of time exactly where the action is going to begin and finish.

 

[mashnut]

I'm not a photographer, but I disagree there. Disc golf is played over a larger area, but the camera man knows ahead of time exactly where the action is going to begin and finish.

In ultimate the cameras never have to move. You can set up good angles and just film from there. In disc golf you're moving every few minutes which makes things a whole lot more difficult. You also aren't dealing with the transitions from sun to shade in ultimate, nor do you have to deal with tracking the flight of the disc against the sky.

 

[anathematize]

Yea from a filming standpoint... disc golf has so many more challenges than a sport played in a confined 'arena' of action.

Moving multiple cameras, tripods, bags, etc from shot to shot can be an endeavor over the course of a tournament run. More so because the filming isn't a primary concern like it would be at a more traditional sporting event, its not like the players are going to wait around while the camera people get setup for the best shots.