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PDGA survey

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If that happens it will kill all love and respect I have for disc golf. What to do with all these frisbees?

Hopefully it will just kill the love and respect for the PDGA and particular board members.

Laura- what consideration is being given the concept that an effective ban is likely illegal in a number of places? (Lana Lawless vs LPGA in California as precedent) It seems to me that regardless of where one sides on the issue at hand it would be ill considered for the PDGA to ask its volunteer tournament directors to violate the law in running events.
 
If were not competing to win and be the best why are we even playing? A touring pro wants to win worlds, usdgc, tpwdc, etc. If they did not want to win and out just to enjoy the game why be a touring pro? That is the whole reasons to be a pro in competitive sports. No one wants a participation trophy we want that no.1 spot.
 
And yes, Arigusawa mentioned it, the ability to cash could be a concern for some.
But while it does perhaps allow that person (Natalie Ryan being the most visible) to pay their rent playing disc golf (and as such, a ban would be an exogenous disruption to their professional career and livelihood), it is absolutely preposterous to assume a transgender woman would not want to play in mixed divisions because of not being able to finish above the cash line.
That is straight from the "transgender women transition to get a competitive advantage" playbook.

My apologies. I wasn't aiming to take this point in that direction. I intended to address your first point above, that a professional transgender woman like Natalie would have difficulty making this a career, not that she would be playing the gender-protected divisions in the hope of a better pay day.
 
In all seriousness, as fun as all of these culture war shenanigans are (73 pages of fun!), a decision like this is only going to lead more young women and girls into thinking that athletic competition is appropriate for them, that they can compete and win just like (and sometimes against!) males, that these differences between the sexes are strictly biological and this dimorphism doesn't extend and enrich every part of our full selves.

As a conservative, I think that encouraging these ideas is encouraging women to hate their femininity, beauty, softness, and vulnerability.

When we say we love FPO, the reality is that people actually view women competing athletically (and we're talking almost entirely about men doing the viewing) as A) embarrassing (Kona's putting, Hokom's butt, Blumroos' tears), B) pornographic (Tattar's tight pink outfits and Mertsch's stoner pixie dream girl act), and maybe a tiny bit of C) patronizing (props to PP working so hard to make it to 1000 even though dudes throw 1000 ratted rounds at league every wednesday with three or four beers in them).

Natalie's presence in the division, bad form and all, lays bare the modern lies we (even conservatives) like to tell each other to deny the full extent of sexual dimorphism and the challenging responsibility that both sexes must take on (in complementary and beautifully entwined ways) as a result.

I support Natalie having the full capacity to express her athletic talents to the full extent of her continued hard work and dedication. I think growing an intimate relationship with her body and mind will only help her continue to outgrow her dysphoria. In turn I hope her involvement encourages women and young girls to similarly focus their energies on the flourishing of their unique gifts, ones which are very different than Natalie's, just not in athletic competition but instead, gifts of communal, emotional, relational, etc. Ultimately that will bring both Natalie and these women greater happiness and compassion for their own limitations, and abilities.
 
Hopefully it will just kill the love and respect for the PDGA and particular board members.

Laura- what consideration is being given the concept that an effective ban is likely illegal in a number of places? (Lana Lawless vs LPGA in California as precedent) It seems to me that regardless of where one sides on the issue at hand it would be ill considered for the PDGA to ask its volunteer tournament directors to violate the law in running events.

There won't be a ban. Mixed Pro Open will always be available for Natalie.
 
Hypothesising there'd be a ban, it'd be people deciding which bathroom I were forced to use, all over again.
Which water fountain I'd be forced to use, all over again.
And I'd effectively be forced to start wearing a yellow star (with a pink triangle) on my disc golf outfit when I play.


First and foremost, you're white. Even if you had been around in the US during the Jim Crow era, you never would've had to worry about which water fountain to use. It is disingenuous at best for you to use that analogy in this, and you would rightly be run up the flagpole for it, if you made it in a more public manner. I'll give you a minor amount of leeway here, because you aren't from the US so you may not fully appreciate the harm you do as a white person claiming the struggles black people had back then as your own, but you should never, EVER use that as part of your rhetoric again, if it never applied to you.

You spend a lot of your comment speaking of what would, essentially, be the emotional fallout to us from the decision. That's a bit disingenuous, because you know for a fact (if for no other reason that the constant, loud, and aggressive hate the PDGA has done nothing effective to address in its membership) that nobody in this discussion cares how it will impact us in any way, least of all how it will make us feel.

And yes, Arigusawa mentioned it, the ability to cash could be a concern for some.
But while it does perhaps allow that person (Natalie Ryan being the most visible) to pay their rent playing disc golf (and as such, a ban would be an exogenous disruption to their professional career and livelihood), it is absolutely preposterous to assume a transgender woman would not want to play in mixed divisions because of not being able to finish above the cash line.
That is straight from the "transgender women transition to get a competitive advantage" playbook.


Even if I would be (rarely or consistently) place above the cash line that would absolutely not be on my mind when playing disc golf. At all.

A quick look at my disc golf career since may 2019, when I competed in gender-based divisions for the first time, I cashed twice out of 28 tournaments, for a career total of $183.
You could say: "well Laura, it's easy to say for you, because you don't cash anyway", but you'd be wrong, simply because winning has never ever been a motivation in playing sports. My only motivator with regards to my performance is strictly related to "beating my personal best".
In disc golf that translates to: attempting to play above my player rating, and attempt to improve my player rating.

No offense, but don't use your lack of cashing to minimize the effect of a ban on those who have done their best to make competitive disc golf their career.

Your information on that is 100% specific to you, and your personal disc golf career, yet you word it as if this is how all trans women would feel. Do we all want to do better? Sure, that's why we do field work and putting practice. But we pay our dues and play tournaments because we want to compete, and have a chance at winning/. There is zero purpose to playing in tournaments, if our registration fee is guaranteed to be a donation to people we never have a chance at beating, and we'd never make it to the DGPT if we can't play well enough to be competitive in our division, no matter how hard we work at improving. A trans woman winning 2 high profile events in one year isn't representative of that sort of effect on the FPO division, but it would be a 100% certainty for any trans woman who has medically transitioned, in MPO.

A ban would be the PDGA ham fistedly trying to prevent the hypothetical issue cis women being able to make a living playing disc golf, by guaranteeing no trans woman can ever make a living playing disc golf, ever again. Yes, it would other us, yes it would open the PDGA up to title IX fights in court in the US, yes it would violate laws in states or countries where competition bans have been made illegal - but pragmatically, this effect is the only one that actually holds any more impact than we, as "out" trans women, face every single day in the workforce, or when we walk out in public - and it holds a HUGE one for someone like Natalie who, unlike you, has actually been able to support herself to some degree with her winnings. It sends a message to every trans woman who has a passion for disc golf, and would love to compete, that the most they can ever compete for is a few discs from the fly mart, which they can hope to sell for a couple hundred bucks, if it was a pretty big tournament.

The disconnect between your view, and the reality of the problem, is why the trans disc golf community has no faith in the BoD. You should be keenly aware of the impacts that matter most immediately in this discussion - yet you're talking about them as if they're something to be shrugged off, because you're more concerned about something you already have to deal with in every other facet of your day to day life. We know that the PDGA would never feel the loss of our membership and tournament fees, because of how few of us there are right now, so there's ZERO reason for us to believe the PDGA will do right by us, because angry, bigoted cis men are so much louder, and more numerous (and thus pay you so much more money) than we will ever be - and the complete SILENCE from the PDGA about doing anything substantive to the abusive rhetoric being thrown at us every day among the player base speaks more loudly than any feigned reassurance from a board member ever could.
 
First and foremost, you're white. Even if you had been around in the US during the Jim Crow era, you never would've had to worry about which water fountain to use. It is disingenuous at best for you to use that analogy in this, and you would rightly be run up the flagpole for it, if you made it in a more public manner. I'll give you a minor amount of leeway here, because you aren't from the US so you may not fully appreciate the harm you do as a white person claiming the struggles black people had back then as your own, but you should never, EVER use that as part of your rhetoric again, if it never applied to you.

You spend a lot of your comment speaking of what would, essentially, be the emotional fallout to us from the decision. That's a bit disingenuous, because you know for a fact (if for no other reason that the constant, loud, and aggressive hate the PDGA has done nothing effective to address in its membership) that nobody in this discussion cares how it will impact us in any way, least of all how it will make us feel.



No offense, but don't use your lack of cashing to minimize the effect of a ban on those who have done their best to make competitive disc golf their career.

Your information on that is 100% specific to you, and your personal disc golf career, yet you word it as if this is how all trans women would feel. Do we all want to do better? Sure, that's why we do field work and putting practice. But we pay our dues and play tournaments because we want to compete, and have a chance at winning/. There is zero purpose to playing in tournaments, if our registration fee is guaranteed to be a donation to people we never have a chance at beating, and we'd never make it to the DGPT if we can't play well enough to be competitive in our division, no matter how hard we work at improving. A trans woman winning 2 high profile events in one year isn't representative of that sort of effect on the FPO division, but it would be a 100% certainty for any trans woman who has medically transitioned, in MPO.

A ban would be the PDGA ham fistedly trying to prevent the hypothetical issue cis women being able to make a living playing disc golf, by guaranteeing no trans woman can ever make a living playing disc golf, ever again. Yes, it would other us, yes it would open the PDGA up to title IX fights in court in the US, yes it would violate laws in states or countries where competition bans have been made illegal - but pragmatically, this effect is the only one that actually holds any more impact than we, as "out" trans women, face every single day in the workforce, or when we walk out in public - and it holds a HUGE one for someone like Natalie who, unlike you, has actually been able to support herself to some degree with her winnings. It sends a message to every trans woman who has a passion for disc golf, and would love to compete, that the most they can ever compete for is a few discs from the fly mart, which they can hope to sell for a couple hundred bucks, if it was a pretty big tournament.

The disconnect between your view, and the reality of the problem, is why the trans disc golf community has no faith in the BoD. You should be keenly aware of the impacts that matter most immediately in this discussion - yet you're talking about them as if they're something to be shrugged off, because you're more concerned about something you already have to deal with in every other facet of your day to day life. We know that the PDGA would never feel the loss of our membership and tournament fees, because of how few of us there are right now, so there's ZERO reason for us to believe the PDGA will do right by us, because angry, bigoted cis men are so much louder, and more numerous (and thus pay you so much more money) than we will ever be - and the complete SILENCE from the PDGA about doing anything substantive to the abusive rhetoric being thrown at us every day among the player base speaks more loudly than any feigned reassurance from a board member ever could.


Keeping in mind she's not from the US, she might not have been referring to the Jim Crow laws in the US. For example, in some parts of the world, Jews still encounter water fountain restrictions even today. But I can see why it would seem to anyone from the US that she was appropriating Jim Crow.
 
Keeping in mind she's not from the US, she might not have been referring to the Jim Crow laws in the US. For example, in some parts of the world, Jews still encounter water fountain restrictions even today. But I can see why it would seem to anyone from the US that she was appropriating Jim Crow.

I did a fair number of Google searches before I wrote that part of my comment (to make sure I wasn't missing a ban on trans people using drinking fountains in the Netherlands, for example), and again from your reply in case I missed something specific to Jewish people, and was unable to find anything not pertaining to the Jim Crow era (where it was mentioned that Jews and Hispanic people often used the non-white drinking fountains during that time, to be safe from aggressive responses from white folks), other than 3 cases of Jewish students not being allowed to use a water fountain on the Temple Mount when police stopped them, and didn't explain why. Can you link me to what I missed?
 
Hopefully it will just kill the love and respect for the PDGA and particular board members.

Laura- what consideration is being given the concept that an effective ban is likely illegal in a number of places? (Lana Lawless vs LPGA in California as precedent) It seems to me that regardless of where one sides on the issue at hand it would be ill considered for the PDGA to ask its volunteer tournament directors to violate the law in running events.

We have not had discussed any particulars of the current policy in light of a potential upcoming change.
We have no reviewed the presentation the Medical Committee will be making.
We have not discussed what the a potential change to the policy could mean to whom.
All of this will take place during the Fall Summit.
 
If were not competing to win and be the best why are we even playing? A touring pro wants to win worlds, usdgc, tpwdc, etc. If they did not want to win and out just to enjoy the game why be a touring pro? That is the whole reasons to be a pro in competitive sports. No one wants a participation trophy we want that no.1 spot.
This is a very narrow perspective. A touring pro can want to a) make a living playing the sport that they love and b) be oriented solely on achieving the best possible performance against the course.

Ultimately I think the most narrow answer that applies broadly to "why be a touring pro?" is "to make a living playing the sport that you love. Beyond that - there are likely many rationales for what it is that drives them toward the sort of great performance that makes that feasible.
 
We have not had discussed any particulars of the current policy in light of a potential upcoming change.
We have no reviewed the presentation the Medical Committee will be making.
We have not discussed what the a potential change to the policy could mean to whom.
All of this will take place during the Fall Summit.

The legal issues strike me as controlling. I trust you to raise them if no one else does. The Lana Lawless suit under California non discrimination laws against the LPGA is a good example, a potential distinction being that the LPGA does not offer "mixed" divisions.
 
I did a fair number of Google searches before I wrote that part of my comment (to make sure I wasn't missing a ban on trans people using drinking fountains in the Netherlands, for example), and again from your reply in case I missed something specific to Jewish people, and was unable to find anything not pertaining to the Jim Crow era (where it was mentioned that Jews and Hispanic people often used the non-white drinking fountains during that time, to be safe from aggressive responses from white folks), other than 3 cases of Jewish students not being allowed to use a water fountain on the Temple Mount when police stopped them, and didn't explain why. Can you link me to what I missed?

Drinking from the Temple Mount fountain was reserved for Muslims, as was carrying religious symbols, prostration, and open prayer. Some activists got that changed in 2020.

I also hesitate to assume someone's heritage based on perceived skin color. In some southern states, having a single great-great-great grandparent (1/32 blood quantum) of color was enough to legally classify someone as colored.
 
Drinking from the Temple Mount fountain was reserved for Muslims, as was carrying religious symbols, prostration, and open prayer. Some activists got that changed in 2020.

I also hesitate to assume someone's heritage based on perceived skin color. In some southern states, having a single great-great-great grandparent (1/32 blood quantum) of color was enough to legally classify someone as colored.

That was still the law in Louisiana as recently as 1983.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...request/ddb0f1df-ba5d-4141-9aa0-6347e60ce52d/

Many states used a 1/16 blood quantum, while for others it was 1/8.
 
Ah yes, the conservative view that women should explicitly embrace being vulnerable.

What the **** is wrong with you people?

I mean, this is the majority view throughout the world and has been throughout history? So, like the same **** that's wrong with most people?
 
I mean, this is the majority view throughout the world and has been throughout history? So, like the same **** that's wrong with most people?
Just because there are a ton of people in this world that think women should embrace being susceptible to physical or emotional attack or harm doesn't mean there's any world in which that is a moral good.
 
I mean, this is the majority view throughout the world and has been throughout history? So, like the same **** that's wrong with most people?

If we're going with views "throughout the world," then bring on the hijab and foot binding.
 
Just because there are a ton of people in this world that think women should embrace being susceptible to physical or emotional attack or harm doesn't mean there's any world in which that is a moral good.

I wouldn't say that's a fair paraphrase of the majority view on gender. Nor would I presume all folks agree on something like "moral good".

I just think women generally and Natalie Ryan in particular would be happier if she was allowed to play FPO.
 
We have not had discussed any particulars of the current policy in light of a potential upcoming change.
We have no reviewed the presentation the Medical Committee will be making.
We have not discussed what the a potential change to the policy could mean to whom.
All of this will take place during the Fall Summit.

Doesn't it seem a bit wrong for such a hot button issue to get no discussion at the board level of the PDGA? How is that leadership? You're letting the member base run amok on trans players, because both sides feel like the board isn't doing anything substantive.

This is something that, in any organization I have been in a position of leadership on, would've gotten discussed well in advance of findings from the medical board, to at least discuss what the options and alternatives are, so that when the medical board does make its presentation, there isn't a huge delay in catching up.

When is the fall summit? Google finds no mention of a date on the PDGA website, and the most recent item tagged "summit" is from 2013.
 
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