15 times champion

[Steve West]

KC was obviously the best of his generation. PM was looking like a shoe-in to be his generations best, but RW is having something to say about it lately. It's tough to compare different eras. At league last week we were talking NBA: 22 year old thinks King James is the best ever, 38 year old thinks it's Jordan, my old butt thinks it's Chamberlain or the Big O. No matter which sport we're talking, we'll never know the GOAT for sure, but it can be fun to discuss.

One way to look at it is: who changed the game? So many of the NBA rules are there because Wilt the Stilt was just too good for the old rules. No one has made an impact like that since.

In disc golf, we could ask: Who caused the rule about falling putts? Who was the reason we can't mark our lie by flipping a disc? Which player forced the rule about discs going in the side off the tray not counting?

Yeah, you know what? Never mind. Let's use championships.

 

[lyleoross]

One way to look at it is: who changed the game? So many of the NBA rules are there because Wilt the Stilt was just too good for the old rules. No one has made an impact like that since.

In disc golf, we could ask: Who caused the rule about falling putts? Who was the reason we can't mark our lie by flipping a disc? Which player forced the rule about discs going in the side off the tray not counting?

Yeah, you know what? Never mind. Let's use championships.

Stork, Stork, Stork!

 

[takman]

One way to look at it is: who changed the game? So many of the NBA rules are there because Wilt the Stilt was just too good for the old rules. No one has made an impact like that since.

In disc golf, we could ask: Who caused the rule about falling putts? Who was the reason we can't mark our lie by flipping a disc? Which player forced the rule about discs going in the side off the tray not counting?

Yeah, you know what? Never mind. Let's use championships.

I don't think any particular players have changed the game, but more so the disc manufacturers and their continuous changes in technology. The players have just adapted, some better than others.

 

[lyleoross]

I don't think any particular players have changed the game, but more so the disc manufacturers and their continuous changes in technology. The players have just adapted, some better than others.

In a couple of ways players have. The media savvy element is spreading and growing the sport hugely, or was it bigly? I know that isn't what you meant, but thought it was important. Players have commented frequently about course and event quality in that venue and that has had a significant impact on course structure and quality. Of course KC didn't really have that option.

For those who don't know, Ken used to post on line. He quit cause of the same reasons the top pros don't come here. Advice from Ams gets old.

 

[TimSyl]

One way to look at it is: who changed the game? So many of the NBA rules are there because Wilt the Stilt was just too good for the old rules. No one has made an impact like that since.

In disc golf, we could ask: Who caused the rule about falling putts? Who was the reason we can't mark our lie by flipping a disc? Which player forced the rule about discs going in the side off the tray not counting?

Yeah, you know what? Never mind. Let's use championships.

Okay then, it's Bill Russell.

 

[ThrowBot]

IMO this stamp handles the issue pretty well.

Includes the twelve [MPO] World Champion titles and the three Masters World Champion titles...but lists them separately, because they're different titles.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I prefer to let Ken Climo and Innova determine how they want to honor The Champ's dominance on there product.
Don't know him personally, but I doubt KC's nearly as butthurt about this as some people are.

 

[DavidSauls]

I prefer to let Ken Climo and Innova determine how they want to honor The Champ's dominance on there product.
Don't know him personally, but I doubt KC's nearly as butthurt about this as some people are.

Way back, I got the impression that the real target was to diminish the prestige of the FPO title. Perhaps just my off-based impression.

 

[Finny]

Way back, I got the impression that the real target was to diminish the prestige of the FPO title. Perhaps just my off-based impression.

I also got that impression.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Way back, I got the impression that the real target was to diminish the prestige of the FPO title. Perhaps just my off-based impression.

That subtlety was probably lost on me. I just took it at face value, because quite honestly I don't look to diminish those in any division.

 

[1978]

FPO is Open.

Men can't play in FPO, women however can play in MPO, thusly it is not "open." regardless of the "O" in FPO. His point is MPO is the only non restricted division.

So...
Pro Masters and Pro Women are akin to each other because they exclude certain players. So, following that logic, agree or not, Paige and Valorie, etc... are not true Champions because they didnt beat paul or Ricky or whomever. If theirs count as championships, then Pro Master's winner's should as well.

 

[lyleoross]

Denigrate FPO certainly became a central theme, if FPO get status, why don't Masters?

Personally, if you aren't a Grandmaster, you're not much of a player anyway. Just a hot young arm with no real skill. Just muscling the disc down the fairway. Young punks like KC and Barry S. Even younger punks like PM and RW. Even younger punks like Eagle and Anthony. Even younger punks like... darn, I ran out of young punks.

And somewhere in the bowels was something about the old guys who played guts and double disc court being real men/women and these disc golf only players being piss ants. Then there was the real men sleep with their discs and real women sleep with their disc golf bags comment. Finally, um, I lost my train of thought...

 

[DavidSauls]

Men can't play in FPO, women however can play in MPO, thusly it is not "open." regardless of the "O" in FPO. His point is MPO is the only non restricted division.

So...
Pro Masters and Pro Women are akin to each other because they exclude certain players. So, following that logic, agree or not, Paige and Valorie, etc... are not true Champions because they didnt beat paul or Ricky or whomever. If theirs count as championships, then Pro Master's winner's should as well.

Agree that FPO isn't completely "open".

Disagree that it's the equivalent of MPM. The reasons for protected divisions are quite different.

 

[lyleoross]

Men can't play in FPO, women however can play in MPO, thusly it is not "open." regardless of the "O" in FPO. His point is MPO is the only non restricted division.

So...
Pro Masters and Pro Women are akin to each other because they exclude certain players. So, following that logic, agree or not, Paige and Valorie, etc... are not true Champions because they didnt beat paul or Ricky or whomever. If theirs count as championships, then Pro Master's winner's should as well.

That's not true, it is open... to any woman who wants to play there, it doesn't discriminate. And by my measure, any guy who opts for a sexual transformation should be allowed to play there too.

I do agree with the point though. If you win in any division, you're a world champion.*

*In your division.

 

[DavidSauls]

Okay. To state the obvious:

Women, due to biological factors, on average, are at a disadvantage competing against men. So we create a separate division.

Older people, due to biological factors, on average, are at a disadvantage competing against younger people. So we create a separate division.

The differences are not the same. The biological factors are not the same. The circumstances are not to same. Therein lies the false equivalence.

Women are born with those biological differences, and have them all their lives. It's not something that happens to them over time.

The old men were once young men. They were born with the advantageous male biology, and had their chance. Their age is something than happened to them.

Which is why FPO champions aren't looked at as the best players in the world, but the best of their gender. The MPM champions are still world champions, but they're the best of those who can no longer compete with the best of their gender. It's not the same, and shouldn't be used to diminish the FPO champions.

 

[lyleoross]

Actually, there is one small fault in David's logic. Up until puberty, women, more specifically, girls are as athletically gifted as boys. Our culture doesn't give them the same opportunities that it gives boys. After puberty, I'm all good with what David wrote.

 

[SonicGuy]

Actually, there is one small fault in David's logic. Up until puberty, women, more specifically, girls are as athletically gifted as boys. Our culture doesn't give them the same opportunities that it gives boys. After puberty, I'm all good with what David wrote.

I understand that based on hormones they are effectively the same, but based on life experience there is just something different between boys and girls before puberty. Maybe it's all societal, but I just can't believe it.

 

[DavidSauls]

Brain wiring. And I'm fairly sure that, pre-puberty, boys have more testosterone.

But, yeah, Lyle's probably right. I'll concede, and amend my statement that females are born with chromosomes that will (on average) eventually limit their ability to compete with men, in most sports, including ours.

On average, of course. There are some individual women who are better than many men. Lots who are better than me.

 

[DavidSauls]

I'll also concede that the "O" in FPO is a little shaky, since the division isn't completely open, but categorize that with the other imprecise division names we use. Including, for that matter, the "P". But it at least gives the division initials some symmetry.

 

[lyleoross]

I understand that based on hormones they are effectively the same, but based on life experience there is just something different between boys and girls before puberty. Maybe it's all societal, but I just can't believe it.

Actually, I tried to say something like that. Clearly I blew it. But yes, because our society treats them differently, they are different. However, when we don't treat them differently you see no real difference. I coached mixed teams and the best player I ever had, Mina, phew. My ankles knew it when I played her. Ferocious is an understatement.