2011 USDGC Format To Change To Handcap + Stroke Scoring

[atl scott]

good to know that possession of banners trumps the integrity of the "national championship"- maybe we can get the bcs to administer the whole deal...

slam confirmed.

 

[medicinalfunk]

reposted from somewhere else, but a good analogy, i thought:

"I think there should be handicaps in all sports. Races..the slower guy gets to start sooner.. Football..the bigger you are the less time you can spend in the gym lifting...Baseball..if you throw fast they move the mound back...Basketball players should be limited to 6"7 210lbs and 3 pointers should be taken away because shooters have an advantage over the big guys."

 

[Cgkdisc]

There are handicaps in many sports with payouts much higher than non-handicapped events in other sports like ours. This is reposted from another site:

Here is one of the biggest handicap events in the World:

The Grand National is a world famous National Hunt horse race which is held at Aintree in the United Kingdom. It is a handicap chase containing thirty fences which is run over a distance of 4 miles and 856 yards (7,242 m). It is the most valuable National Hunt event in Great Britain, and in 2010 it offered a total prize fund of £925,000. The race is popular amongst many people who do not normally watch or bet on horse racing at other times of the year.

In the U.S. there are 30 Grade 1 (top level) handicap horse races. Also from Wikipedia: Handicapping is used in scoring many games and competitive sports, including: go, chess, croquet, golf, bowling, polo, basketball, and track and field events.

Just because we don't have the tradition yet for handicapping, doesn't mean it can't materialize. We don't have a tradition for match play either and the Players Cup did pretty well as a format.

 

[Dave Walters]

"I think there should be handicaps in all sports. Races..the slower guy gets to start sooner.. Football..the bigger you are the less time you can spend in the gym lifting...Baseball..if you throw fast they move the mound back...Basketball players should be limited to 6"7 210lbs and 3 pointers should be taken away because shooters have an advantage over the big guys."

Has anyone else read Kurt Vonneguts story: Harrison Bergeron

Sounds an awful lot like that story.

 

[billnchristy]

Hey, don't like the format?

1) Don't play
2) Make your own

Get off the sac of those who have spent way too many hours catering to a bunch of whiners. It's their sandbox, if you don't like the castle go play somewhere else.

For the record I think its dumb too, not because of the handicap but because nobody has come up with a decent handicapping system yet.

Pros, scared of girls and intermediate players? Man the EFF up and play better, aren't you supposed to be pros?

 

[Cgkdisc]

nobody has come up with a decent handicapping system yet.

Disc Golf United. http://www.discgolfunited.com

 

[harr0140]

Just because we don't have the tradition yet for handicapping, doesn't mean it can't materialize. We don't have a tradition for match play either and the Players Cup did pretty well as a format.

Coming from a long history in the golf world I have said this numerous times that match play is an underutilized format in disc golf. Match play gets to the core of risk/reward, playing the person as much as you are playing the course, and in my opinion is a truer sense of competition. Sure stroke play the guy with the least strokes wins, but in match play it take more than just power and putting it takes a mental game, something I am sure most of the top disc golfers have, but the majority of the mid level players do not. I love match play and want to see it instituted more frequently.

I recommend every club (or perhaps every TD forms a team based on people who play in their tourneys) has its own match play team (kindof like a ryder cup) where the club puts forth 8 or 10 of their guys as a team and can be paired with comparable players, so perhaps you could do it based on PDGA rating. You need to qualify for the team and there can also be captains selections. But each club could have 2 rec players, 2 intermediate players, 2 advanced players, and 2 pro players, and perhaps an alternate in each division.. Those 8 guys go up against another clubs team with the same setup. Perhaps there could be a national disc golf club championship!!! I would love to see this instituted and I think it would be a big hit and it would highlight people of every level and therefore it would bring in more viewers because they get to watch all the levels of competition. This will be a hit within each club because of the honor that goes along with qualifying for the team, and then the bargging rights of playing against other clubs and states and regions!

I volunteer to bring this up next year for my club. Who else will make this happen in their own club?

 

[Cgkdisc]

There's already a deep team match play tradition in several parts of the country. No one has ever organized it nationally. The big drawback is payout. Top players make more money in singles events than can usually be generated in a team format. Minnesota Mider Cup, Southwest Teams, Texas Teams (456 players last month), Norcal/Socal, Virginia and formerly the Midwest Teams in Sandy Point (widest ranging teams geographically) are some long running match play team events.

 

[harr0140]

nice, must just not be in my area, or I am not good enough to qualify, but I would think sponsors would take to an event like that better than some other events. Perhaps not, I just see the ryder cup match play format as a way to promote the sport too.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Sort of like this?
http://www.pdga.com/prez-cup-dg-movie

 

[harr0140]

Sort of like this?
http://www.pdga.com/prez-cup-dg-movie

basically yes, I watched that the day it came out and I hope it works to help promote the sport, but I like the idea of more levels of competition, involing more people, getting more people interested. Perhaps I am off base, but I think it owuld be a great event more about the honor and the competition than about the money and the glory, but I do understand why the top pros want to be able to make a living at this sport

 

[Rip Van]

I think the USGA was involved back in the late 90s and objected to both words "U.S." and "Open" in the name of a disc golf event.

Hopefully, the sport can continue to use "Player's Cup" as the name of a tournament.

So if we can't change USDGC to USDGO with the stroke of a Sharpie, there are still at least two other options: U8DGC and USDGQ. But I have no clue what either acronym could stand for...

 

[StevenDodge]

So if we can't change USDGC to USDGO with the stroke of a Sharpie, there are still at least two other options: U8DGC and USDGQ. But I have no clue what either acronym could stand for...

I'd go for U8DQ and its king counterpart tourney U8BK.

 

[Frank Delicious]

So many tears over a DG tournament. So many delicious tears.

I'm pretty stoked b/c this means I might be able to qualify instead of getting beat out by the same guys every year. I think someone asked this already but is there a list of qualifier events or have those not yet been determined?

 

[Cgkdisc]

I think they're still working out how and where the best places will be. The Piney Woods event this weekend is a prototype to help them figure out if they have the parameters worked out.

 

[Frank Delicious]

That's cool, what are the rough parameters they are going to be evaluating?

 

[Cgkdisc]

More the mechanics of how to determine who qualifies and when names will be posted. Probably too tough for TDs to do the calcs at the event so qualifiers might not know who they are until a few days later when their names are posted. There are few other things when I talked with Harold Friday but I'll wait until they post officially what they decided.

 

[1978]

In golf the handicap is used as like a 90% handicap. SO if a 1000 rated player is scratch and a 900 rated player is basically like a 10 handicap The 1000 rated player will get no strokes, and then 900 rated player will get 9 instead of 10. There are positive handicaps however if you are above "scratch: so technically if you were 1040 you would have to give back 4 strokes to the 1000 rated player in essence. It also fluctuates based on the difficulty of the course, so for a 66 ssa course versus a 54 ssa course there might be a few extra or less strokes given in this same circumstance.

Not sure if this helps or hurts anyones arguments, just throwing it out there for some more information.

I hear you, however, I am still concerned that qualifying will be eaten up by players in the local NC/SC area that are just starting their tournament career. I went from 935 to 965 in 4 ratings updates. Thats just an example of how fast someone can improve in 6 months. My US Doubles partner didnt play a PDGA event in 2009 and ended 2008 920 rated. He is a 970 rated player starting in 2010, if had skipped 2010 and made his first event in 2011 a USDGC qualifying event, he would probably qualify because of the difference in his last PDGA rating and his actual skill level in 2011. It just doesnt seem like a fair way to qualify for a USDGC. Randomly, players who skipped 2010 or the winter of 2010 will have 6-12 months of practice before playing in a qualifying event.

Example: Say in a perfect world you have 2 exactly equal players progressing at the same rate.

Player A rated 920 June 2010, 930 Nov. 2010, 950 Feb 2011 at USDGC qualifying event.
Player B rated 920 June 2010, 920 Feb 2011 at USDGC qualifying event.

Because player A supported PDGA sanctioned events for 6 extra months he will be penalized 3 shots per round or 12 over the course of the USDGC against an equal player.

I understand that the USDGC isnt that important this year, but I am extremly discouraged to even try to qualify or play in the USDGC. It is in my back yard. Seems like the winner for qualifying and the USDGC will just be the person who has taken the most time off between their last event and the USDGC.

 

[1978]

Have you actually talked to Jonathon about it? I did today. No one can really make the case why this change is bad for the sport when growth has always come from the bottom, not the top. Some of the top players who didn't sign the petition are Innova sponsored players who understand the big picture and it's still not driven by top player events but grassroots events. If enough spectators came and paid to watch and enough people paid enough to watch online, the USDGC would likely have continued without change. But no pro event has really demonstrated a sustainable financial model without being significantly propped up by friendly manufacturers. Innova has done much more propping than any company over the years with Vibram the 'new kid' now giving it a shot. Corruption? Abuse? Laughable.

Agree. Ams grow the sport. Am tournaments fund the clubs that purchase the equipment and build the courses. This does more than any pro winning an event.

That being said. The amount of work that Innova does to prep the course is mind boggling. They only have like 30 employees in Rock Hill and most of them are out for a month straight setting up, running, and tearing down the course, working 12-16 hr days. They provide that labor, loss in facility efficiency, and then even provide cash to the event as a sponsor. Anyone who questions Innovas support for the USDGC is ignorant in my opinion. No event currently has as much effort put into the set up and tear down. They have all the right in the world to say they can't handle it every year or that they would like to reward the actual growth sector (Ams) with a USDGC.

I still dont like the format, but thats just my opinion.

 

[Frank Delicious]

God! why can't the system they are attempting to work the kinks out of and still have a year to perfect be perfect now?