2022 Memorial Championship in Arizona

[glassila]

So when you go OB, you can take optional relief without another stroke?

803.02 Relief from Obstacles
D. A player may elect at any time to take optional relief by declaring their intention to the group. The lie may then be relocated by marking a new lie which is farther from the target and is on the line of play. One penalty throw is added to the player's score.
E. No penalty throw is added if optional relief is being taken following a penalty taken for a disc out-of-bounds or above two meters.

 

[Steve West]

Watching the video, I thought the LOP went 45 degrees out into OB. Looking at the map, it looks like the LOP parallels the OB line.

This is why we don't make calls based on video (or map) evidence.

There were three other people in the card whose job it is to know and enforce rules. I'll assume they did their job.

 

[BillFleming]

Regarding Jen Allen's relief on Round 3 hole 11.

I was the Course Director that day and, if there were issues with the play they were decided by the card as no one discussed it with me afterwards. What possibly happened is that she took relief from an anthill.

803.02 Relief from Obstacles

A. A player may obtain relief from the following obstacles that are on or behind the lie: harmful insects or animals, people, or any item as designated by the Director. To obtain relief, the player may mark a new lie that is on the line of play, farther from the target, at the nearest point that provides relief (unless greater relief is announced by the Director).

Unfortunately, we can't see on the video if there was an anthill there. But they do exist on the course.

The other possibility is Jen knows about the "loophole" in the rule. (This is my guess as to what happened).

D. A player may elect at any time to take optional relief by declaring their intention to the group. The lie may then be relocated by marking a new lie which is farther from the target and is on the line of play. One penalty throw is added to the player's score.
E. No penalty throw is added if optional relief is being taken following a penalty taken for a disc out-of-bounds or above two meters.

So, knowing the rules, Jen took optional relief along the line (D), which NORMALLY would be a penalty stroke, but since the relief followed an OB penalty (E), she didn't get a second penalty stroke.


So, OB - one stroke. Taking the option relief - one stroke. Part E of the rule removes the second penalty stroke. End result - one penalty stroke for the OB.

 

[seedlings]

What is the story behind the double provisional throws Emily Beach took? Where was her alternate lie?

 

[glassila]

Regarding Jen Allen's relief on Round 3 hole 11.


The other possibility is Jen knows about the "loophole" in the rule. (This is my guess as to what happened).

So, knowing the rules, Jen took optional relief along the line (D), which NORMALLY would be a penalty stroke, but since the relief followed an OB penalty (E), she didn't get a second penalty stroke.

So, OB - one stroke. Taking the option relief - one stroke. Part E of the rule removes the second penalty stroke. End result - one penalty stroke for the OB.

She didn't take advantage of a "loophole" in the rule...she followed the rules to her benefit! Good for her for knowing the rule.

A loophole is a poorly written rule or law that makes it possible for someone to legally avoid obeying it.

 

[BillFleming]

What is the story behind the double provisional throws Emily Beach took? Where was her alternate lie?

Which day and which hole?

 

[BillFleming]

She didn't take advantage of a "loophole" in the rule...she followed the rules to her benefit! Good for her for knowing the rule.

A loophole is a poorly written rule or law that makes it possible for someone to legally avoid obeying it.

Definition of a loophole:

an ambiguity or inadequacy in the law or a set of rules.

The ambiguity/inadequacy is that the rule is for Obstacles and allows you to take relief even if there are no obstacles in your lie.

The process should be.....
1. take OB relief
2. determine if there is an Obstacle on the lie.
A. if so, take relief back on the line
B. if not, the Obstacle rule doesn't come into play.

Having an Unplayable Lie rule would resolve the issue above. Move 803.02.D and E to a new rule titled Unplayable Lie. Any player can call their lie unplayable and take relief with a penalty. (ball golf uses this).

Basically, I'm saying D/E are not rules that should be part of the Relief from Obstacles rule as it doesn't apply to obstacles.

But either way....it shows why some players have an advantage over others....they know their rules better and how to use them.

 

[seedlings]

Which day and which hole?

Day 4 hole 12

 

[txmxer]

You quoted the situation you said you couldn't find and said was a terrible rule…points D and E.

She took optional relief further away and did not receive the penalty strike normally associated with doing so because she was already taking a penalty stroke for going OB.

I believe that rule change happened maybe 2-3 years ago at this point? The first year it was in effect early in the season there were a couple of instances where players used it to their advantage. I'm pretty sure Ricky did at least once, if not maybe a couple of times. Instances like backing up to not be pinched off by a dogleg or backing up to have a better angle to go up and over trees. I don't think everybody understood the rule or how it could be useful.

McBeth used it in R4 at the memorial.

 

[txmxer]

Not to be that guy, but these ladies can still beat most of us at disc golf. OK now carry on explaining how the FPO players can improve, lol.

Universally true for all pro sports.

There would be no pro sports if fans were expected to passive observers without opinions.

 

[ThrowBot]

I was pleasantly surprised by the Terry Miller + Nate Perkins commentary on the MPO Fountain Hills rounds. They seemed to have good chemistry and didn't need to fill up every moment of air time with blather. I also appreciate the homework on what molds the players were using -- interesting to see the Falcor and Captain's Raptor fly.

 

[Shallows]

Universally true for all pro sports.

Well, maybe not true in pro soccer: https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/ne...-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/

 

[BillFleming]

Day 4 hole 12

I'll have to take a look at the video tonight. I wasn't at the course for Day 4, so I don't know the outcome of that one. That's an interesting hole.....I'm not sure why she would have had to take provisionals, unless there wasn't a spotter that day or she had really huge throws.

Anyways....I'll look at the video and I'll be talking to the TD's after work today, so I'll see if I can find anything out.

Hole 12 is a tough hole for players - which is why we always try to have a spotter there even if we only have one spotter for the whole course.

The tee pad is at a lower spot than the basket, which makes it impossible to see what happens to the disc when it goes above the gunnite dam. If the disc skims the top of the dam, it is impossible for the player to see if it went inbounds at all.

Per the caddy book for that hole: Gunnite is OB, Lake, sidewalk right and beyond is OB. For women, use short tee and play from where disc was last in bounds.

 

[seedlings]

I'll have to take a look at the video tonight. I wasn't at the course for Day 4, so I don't know the outcome of that one. That's an interesting hole.....I'm not sure why she would have had to take provisionals, unless there wasn't a spotter that day or she had really huge throws.

Anyways....I'll look at the video and I'll be talking to the TD's after work today, so I'll see if I can find anything out.

Hole 12 is a tough hole for players - which is why we always try to have a spotter there even if we only have one spotter for the whole course.

The tee pad is at a lower spot than the basket, which makes it impossible to see what happens to the disc when it goes above the gunnite dam. If the disc skims the top of the dam, it is impossible for the player to see if it went inbounds at all.

Per the caddy book for that hole: Gunnite is OB, Lake, sidewalk right and beyond is OB. For women, use short tee and play from where disc was last in bounds.

She threw her tee shot short of the basket OB water/gunite. She threw provisional from the tee side of the water. I just wondered what made her throw provisional. The card watched the shot. Perhaps she wondered if it hit grass up on the basket side of the pond? Then her provisional shot was also short, and she threw provisional again from the exact same lie. Coverage never showed her alternate throws, so that's why I asked.

 

[ru4por]

I'll have to take a look at the video tonight. I wasn't at the course for Day 4, so I don't know the outcome of that one. That's an interesting hole.....I'm not sure why she would have had to take provisionals, unless there wasn't a spotter that day or she had really huge throws.

Anyways....I'll look at the video and I'll be talking to the TD's after work today, so I'll see if I can find anything out.

Hole 12 is a tough hole for players - which is why we always try to have a spotter there even if we only have one spotter for the whole course.

The tee pad is at a lower spot than the basket, which makes it impossible to see what happens to the disc when it goes above the gunnite dam. If the disc skims the top of the dam, it is impossible for the player to see if it went inbounds at all.

Per the caddy book for that hole: Gunnite is OB, Lake, sidewalk right and beyond is OB. For women, use short tee and play from where disc was last in bounds.

I read the situation to mean she was unsure if the shot had hit IB and then went OB on the other side of the water. Both OB shots made it to the gunite and failed to skip IB. If they had touched IB and went back OB, she could take the shot on the other side of the lake, instead of the drop zone? I could be all wrong, but that is what I assumed.

 

[roblee]

My brief summary: I agree with Bill that 803.02 D allows JA to take "any time" relief after marking her OB. 803.02 E removes the additional relief penalty because it's taken after an OB. I'm not questioning Jen's lie but IF the new lie was not marked on the line of play then "803.02 C. A player who takes relief other than as allowed above receives one penalty throw." However, "above" relates only to relief from obstacles. Maybe C could be moved to the end of the rule so it refers to all sections of 803.02?

 

[BogeyNoMore]

... at least she didn't ball up her disc and throw it in the basket. :|

 

[foxdawg10]

Universally true for all pro sports.

There would be no pro sports if fans were expected to passive observers without opinions.

This is true. I just see irony in some of the comments that's all.

 

[BillFleming]

She threw her tee shot short of the basket OB water/gunite. She threw provisional from the tee side of the water. I just wondered what made her throw provisional. The card watched the shot. Perhaps she wondered if it hit grass up on the basket side of the pond? Then her provisional shot was also short, and she threw provisional again from the exact same lie. Coverage never showed her alternate throws, so that's why I asked.

First, I talked to the TDs and the card never came to them, so it was resolved by the group.

So anything I say is just based on the video and my knowledge of the hole.

You and ru4por have the right idea.

Players cannot see the green from the tee box, so it is impossible to tell if your disc goes inbound at any time.

While there was a spotter, a spotter is not a Tournament Official and isn't always a Certified Rules Official....they do make mistakes. This is what I believe the provisionals were for.

Emily received the OB flag. She either wasn't sure or didn't believe the call was correct, so she threw a provisional. Now if she finds out the spotter made a mistake and the first disc was actually in bounds, she could take the first throw. Then she got a second red flag and again, either wasn't sure or didn't believe the call to be correct and called a provisional again.

As the video showed, the first two throws were actually OB and she took a 6.

There have been mistakes made where a disc is barely over the OB line and a spotter called it OB (not this tournament luckily). So this was a great decision on her part. Imagine if she hadn't called a provisional, threw, finally got the green flag, only to find out her first throw was just barely in bounds.

I tell my spotters, if you aren't sure cross the red and green flag together. Players (well most of them) know that means the spotter can't make a determination. In this case, however, the first two throws were definitely OB.

By the way, there was no drop zone....even though the commentators mentioned one. They moved up to where the disc last was in bounds, which was mainly right in front of the tee. The Pro men did have a drop zone as they were further back and their drop zone was the womens/am men's tee pad.

 

[txmxer]

First, I talked to the TDs and the card never came to them, so it was resolved by the group.

So anything I say is just based on the video and my knowledge of the hole.

You and ru4por have the right idea.

Players cannot see the green from the tee box, so it is impossible to tell if your disc goes inbound at any time.

While there was a spotter, a spotter is not a Tournament Official and isn't always a Certified Rules Official....they do make mistakes. This is what I believe the provisionals were for.

Emily received the OB flag. She either wasn't sure or didn't believe the call was correct, so she threw a provisional. Now if she finds out the spotter made a mistake and the first disc was actually in bounds, she could take the first throw. Then she got a second red flag and again, either wasn't sure or didn't believe the call to be correct and called a provisional again.

As the video showed, the first two throws were actually OB and she took a 6.

There have been mistakes made where a disc is barely over the OB line and a spotter called it OB (not this tournament luckily). So this was a great decision on her part. Imagine if she hadn't called a provisional, threw, finally got the green flag, only to find out her first throw was just barely in bounds.

I tell my spotters, if you aren't sure cross the red and green flag together. Players (well most of them) know that means the spotter can't make a determination. In this case, however, the first two throws were definitely OB.

By the way, there was no drop zone....even though the commentators mentioned one. They moved up to where the disc last was in bounds, which was mainly right in front of the tee. The Pro men did have a drop zone as they were further back and their drop zone was the womens/am men's tee pad.

Pretty much what I see. If the disc had gone in bounds, and then back over on to the gunite, would she not have been allowed the distance? Thus another reason to call a provisional. When she arrived at the hole, the spotter states that it never touched IB, so no need to throw the additional throws.