American Disc Golf Association

[DavidSauls]

So - if we run Advanced, Intermediate and Novice - a Player with a with a 875 rating could play Intermediate or Novice - correct?

Is there a huge difference between a 875 player and a 900 Player?

No....players can play up. A player with an 875 rating is too high for Novice, but can play Intermediate (900-934) or Advanced (935-).

Similarly, if you offer Advanced and Recreational, the Intermediate players will have to play Advanced, and the Novice players have to play Recreational.

*

There's a noticeable difference between 875 and 900,but not so much that the 875 won't beat the 900 sometimes. If you want a rule of thumb, it's about 10 ratings points per stroke (depending on the course). So in a 2-round 1-day tournament, the 875 would lose by an average of 5 strokes to the 900.

But in a field of players, it's much harder for the 875 to beat a group of 900s.

It's not uncommon lower-rated players to play in higher divisions. But they don't win the event. But if they get hot, they can finish high enough to win some prizes.

 

[discgolftom]

This is not going to work out well for you at all.

It will be okay. I've done both at every sporting event that I hosted.

 

[discgolftom]

I don't know about that. (72 x 50 X 5 = 18,800) + (64 x 50 = 3,200) = 22,000. 10,000 / 22000 = 45% of money being returned. Likely the worst payout ratio I have seen at any tourney.

We are paying out 90% of all Entry Fees in the Championship - I was illustrating how instead of a $10000 4wheeler - we could spread it over 4 places.

Whatever the remaining balance is can be paid down.

 

[discgolftom]

I don't know about that. (72 x 50 X 5 = 18,800) + (64 x 50 = 3,200) = 22,000. 10,000 / 22000 = 45% of money being returned. Likely the worst payout ratio I have seen at any tourney.

It's $50 x 72 Players x 4 Qualifiers + $50 x 72 Players in Championship. Total of $18,000 @ 90% = $16,200 total prize pool if all 4 Qualifiers sell out.

 

[discgolftom]

N

There's a noticeable difference between 875 and 900,but not so much that the 875 won't beat the 900 sometimes. If you want a rule of thumb, it's about 10 ratings points per stroke (depending on the course). So in a 2-round 1-day tournament, the 875 would lose by an average of 5 strokes to the 900.

Using the above data - if Championship is handicapped - 10 rating points could equal 1 stroke as a handicap?

So - Mr. Advanced @ 950 vs Mr Novice at 830 - 120 point difference. Advanced would give Novice 12 strokes?

 

[DavidSauls]

Using the above data - if Championship is handicapped - 10 rating points could equal 1 stroke as a handicap?

So - Mr. Advanced @ 950 vs Mr Novice at 830 - 120 point difference. Advanced would give Novice 12 strokes?

More or less.

Ratings aren't intended for handicaps. But that'll play out on a course with an SSA of around 54 (SSA is a 1000-rated round). On tougher courses it's fewer points per stroke; on easier courses, it's more.

Whether you want to do that or not, is your call. (I'm not a handicap fan, and I'm not sure how players would react to the proposal).

Note that you won't have a rating for unrated players, and if it's not sanctioned, you won't have access to the ratings of players who aren't current PDGA members.

 

[Casey 1988]

Having a "Prayer" prior to the start of the Event isn't being "religious", nor is it "religion" . . .

We are going to have a Prayer prior to National Anthem. It will be listed in the Tournament itinerary. Players will know about it prior to attending. Should they want a refund - we will provide that the next business day.

That to me is not religious, what is is the way this guy is saying it is gods will to have him do this. he is making me want to do this until I crack skull open and die--> :wall:.

 

[Casey 1988]

The courses we are looking at to host our Tournaments already have baskets.

Appreciate your support Casey.

That was a joke and luckily I will not have ever interact with you on a course seeing how far apart we are. :thmbup: :clap:

 

[discgolftom]

That to me is not religious, what is is the way this guy is saying it is gods will to have him do this.

Where was this said?

I said that through Christ all things are possible, in case i needed assistance with the "tasks".

He is making me want to do this until I crack skull open and die--> :wall:.

Man - be careful . . .

 

[John Rock]

Casey is an odd one, that's for sure. Many of us wonder where his information comes from. As far as handicaps go, I've seen it bring out a bad side of people. I did a weekly handicap league for many years and for the most part it accomplished what I was trying to do. Relatively a smaller community of golfers but a large spread of skill. The higher skilled golfers did not much care for the system but played anyway mainly because the chance for a large Ace Pot. And the cost was pretty low. The people looking to cheat (WHAT?? Golfers who cheat? NO WAY!) are going to work hard to find a way to game whatever system you use. Some people will go to great lengths to feel good about getting over on something.

 

[discgolftom]

No....players can play up. A player with an 875 rating is too high for Novice, but can play Intermediate (900-934) or Advanced (935-).

Similarly, if you offer Advanced and Recreational, the Intermediate players will have to play Advanced, and the Novice players have to play Recreational.

*

There's a noticeable difference between 875 and 900,but not so much that the 875 won't beat the 900 sometimes. If you want a rule of thumb, it's about 10 ratings points per stroke (depending on the course). So in a 2-round 1-day tournament, the 875 would lose by an average of 5 strokes to the 900.

But in a field of players, it's much harder for the 875 to beat a group of 900s.

It's not uncommon lower-rated players to play in higher divisions. But they don't win the event. But if they get hot, they can finish high enough to win some prizes.

Thinking these standard PDGA Divisions should work in the Qualifiers:

Advanced - 935> PDGA Player Rating.

Recreational - <900 PDGA Player Rating

Novice - <850 DGA Player Rating

 

[discgolftom]

Thinking these standard PDGA Divisions should work in the Qualifiers:

Advanced - 935> PDGA Player Rating.

Recreational - <900 PDGA Player Rating

Novice - <850 DGA Player Rating

Handicap the Championship. Not sure how - but thinking - .1 Stroke per 1 Rating point.

Handicap is not available to any Player that has a PDGA Rating of 935 or greater -or- no PDGA rating at all.

Example - a Novice player with a 800 Rating competing against the highest Rated Players above them would get .1 Stoke deducted for every 1 Rating Point of those above them.

Example - Player A, who finishes with the lowest overall gross score of 50 and has a PDGA Rating of 950 turns in a card @ 50. Player B with a PDGA Rating of 800 turns in a card @ 66. There is a 150 point difference -or- 15 strokes.

Handicaps do not apply to the the Top 4 Places.

Thoughts?

 

[DavidSauls]

Take with a grain of salt, since this is coming from someone who doesn't like handicaps:

* Less complicated would be a set scale: 1 stroke for players rated 920-929, 2 strokes for 910-919, etc.

* Or even simpler, if you're mixing the qualifier divisions into one field for the finals, a flat handicap for each division. That is, the ones who qualified in Advanced, get 0; the ones in Rec, 5, the ones in Novice, 10. Or something along those lines.

* I'm not a golfer, but aren't golf handicaps just a percentage of the difference in average scoring spreads -- like 90%, or 80% ? So the better player still has a better chance of winning, but the weaker player's odds are improved so he'll win sometimes.

* .1 per point works on some courses. On easier courses, it'll favor the weaker players; on tougher courses, the better players.

* Better players are better, in part, because they're more consistent. An 850-rated player may have rounds rated 750 or 950, sometimes in the same event. A 950-rated player almost never has rounds rated 1050 or 850. So a handicap means that a weak player having a hot round (for him) has an advantage.


A line in John Rock's post is a good one -- better players don't like handicaps, so you risk running them off. You're trying to draw players for the competition, but then reducing the competition by taking away the benefits of them being better. Again, it's your toy, do as you wish.

 

[discgolftom]

Take with a grain of salt, since this is coming from someone who doesn't like handicaps:

* Less complicated would be a set scale: 1 stroke for players rated 920-929, 2 strokes for 910-919, etc.

* Or even simpler, if you're mixing the qualifier divisions into one field for the finals, a flat handicap for each division. That is, the ones who qualified in Advanced, get 0; the ones in Rec, 5, the ones in Novice, 10. Or something along those lines.

* I'm not a golfer, but aren't golf handicaps just a percentage of the difference in average scoring spreads -- like 90%, or 80% ? So the better player still has a better chance of winning, but the weaker player's odds are improved so he'll win sometimes.

* .1 per point works on some courses. On easier courses, it'll favor the weaker players; on tougher courses, the better players.

* Better players are better, in part, because they're more consistent. An 850-rated player may have rounds rated 750 or 950, sometimes in the same event. A 950-rated player almost never has rounds rated 1050 or 850. So a handicap means that a weak player having a hot round (for him) has an advantage.


A line in John Rock's post is a good one -- better players don't like handicaps, so you risk running them off. You're trying to draw players for the competition, but then reducing the competition by taking away the benefits of them being better. Again, it's your toy, do as you wish.

Thanks as always for the input, David.

Going to look at some past Amateur Tournaments and see what the spreads were and run some data.

 

[Martin Dewgarita]

Look into the 2011 USDGC for probably the most famous use of a handicap system in our sport, it was overall pretty much regarded as a flop.

 

[discgolftom]

Look into the 2011 USDGC for probably the most famous use of a handicap system in our sport, it was overall pretty much regarded as a flop.

Today, I crunched some data of 12 Amateur Tournaments in Nov and Dec 2020.

If it had been handicapped - it wouldn't have changed the results of the Top 10 - especially the top 4 . . .

I'm coming to the conclusion that handicapping isn't worth the effort, nor the grief.

 

[discgolftom]

Take with a grain of salt, since this is coming from someone who doesn't like handicaps:

Talked with a TD today. He made some suggestions that I really like. Not sure if the PDGA will approve the format and sanction the Tournaments - but, won't hurt to ask them.

Southern Classic Tournament

4 - 72 Player Qualifiers, each advancing 18 total Players to the Championship [ 72 Player max ]

Open up registration with 3 standard PDGA Divisions:

Advanced - 935 >

Intermediate - < 935

Recreational - < 900

Max of 72 total Players per Qualifier. Players can "play up" but not "play down".

Let the Divisions fill up on their own - first come - first serve. Minimum of 8 Players per Division. Should a Division not hit the minimum - offer to bump the Player(s) up to next available Division -or- refund their Entry Fee. TD will adjust the Divisions to a number divisible by 4.

Advance 25% of the Players from each Division in the Qualifier to the Championship. Max of 72 Players in Championship. Example: 36 Players register for Advanced, 24 for Int and 12 Rec. In this scenario - 9 Advanced Players + 6 Int Players + 3 Rec Players would advance to the Championship.

Prizes will be paid out to each qualified Division in the Championship based on the # of Players that play in each Qualifier + Championship. If all 4 Qualifiers have 72 Players and there are 72 Players in the Championship - the total Prize Pool will be $16,200 [ 72 Players x $50 x 4 Qualifiers + 72 Players x $50 in Championship = $18,000 x 90% = $16,200 ]

$16,200 would be shared between the Divisions based on the the # of Players in each specific Division.

Example - using the #'s in bold above - There would be 36 Players in the Advanced Division, 24 in Int and 12 in Rec. Advanced Division would receive 50% of total prize pool or $8,100. Intermediate Division - 33.3% or $5,394 and Rec Division 16.7% or $2,705.

Pay out 4 places in all Divisions:

1st = 50% of prize pool

2nd = 25% of prize pool

3rd = 15% of prize pool

4th = 10% of prize pool

Won't be the BIG prize for the Champion that I had imagined. But - we will have still have one of the better Prize Packages in the area.

Thoughts?

 

[DavidSauls]

It's not one of the better Prize Packages -- it's just a concentrated one. The same prizes that would be spread out among a lot of people, will be concentrated to a few. The field, as a group, isn't getting any more than they normally do.

 

[discgolftom]

It's not one of the better Prize Packages -- it's just a concentrated one. The same prizes that would be spread out among a lot of people, will be concentrated to a few. The field, as a group, isn't getting any more than they normally do.

Please show me an Amateur Tournament that has the Prize Packages we are proposing.

 

[DavidSauls]

Please show me an Amateur Tournament that has the Prize Packages we are proposing.

I don't know how to access the amateur prizes of other events. But...

Virtually every amateur tournament pays out 100% of entries, in the value of prizes and players packs. Some do it in prizes, on top of players packs. (The only exception I've known was charity fundraiser events -- which is what I run currently).

You're offering 90% of entries in prizes, plus players packs.

You're just concentrating those winnings to a few players, rather than spread them out to more players. But the payment to the entire group is the same.

You're proposing to do so by having really low payouts for the qualifiers, to boost the payout in the finals. But added together, it comes to the same thing.