All molds across all companies are a case of run chasing. It's why people look for very specific runs of Destroyers. Or FAF Firebirds, etc, etc. But I hear you. It's actually why I switched to throwing MVP almost 10 years ago. They were more consistent at the time than every other manufacturer. They've lost some of that, but, I will say, I think MVP is figuring out their consistency more. They moved production in-house a few years ago and immediately had some major consistency issues, but it seems to be getting better and better recently. The last few runs of Envies, for instance, have all been on the more stable side.
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[Axiom] Axiom Crave, FAIRWAY DRIVER?!
- Thread starter Titan037
- Start date
All molds across all companies are a case of run chasing. It's why people look for very specific runs of Destroyers. Or FAF Firebirds, etc, etc. But I hear you. It's actually why I switched to throwing MVP almost 10 years ago. They were more consistent at the time than every other manufacturer. They've lost some of that, but, I will say, I think MVP is figuring out their consistency more. They moved production in-house a few years ago and immediately had some major consistency issues, but it seems to be getting better and better recently. The last few runs of Envies, for instance, have all been on the more stable side.
thatdirtykid
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I think MVP is actively working more toward consistency than any other larger brand. They did get hit with the consistency struggles during the covid boom just like everyone else. More production, plastic shortages, new machines ect.
Just be happy if you are an MVP fan that you didn't have to deal with the Kasta consistency flop.
auzcar
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I respectfully disagree with this. Although the run is an ever present factor as well, and maybe more important, I think the plastic type do change the stability out of the box for many companies and molds. I have enough experience with Star vs Gstar Destroyers, Lucid vs BioFuzion Trespasses and Getaways, Eclipse vs Electron Envy's etc to claim that there's a significant different across those that isn't caused by the run.
I didn't take it as precluding differences due to plastic. I can testify that the Plasma Crave is a different animal from the Neutron and MVP will even revise flight numbers between plastics switch the Fission Wave's 2.5 turn as an example.
But I'm also absolutely certain that there's run variation within plastics, with the first and second run Hokom Craves being a good example. So, at least in my mind a both/and rather than an either/or.
auzcar
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100% agree
Yes, I do think that some plastics do affect how a disc molds up to some degree. MVP has stated as such in a couple of the Lab Reports they've put out that you can find on their website. They specifically called out Eclipse to say that the glow particles caused it to cool differently and resulted in a more stable disc. They also have addressed Electron before, and said for at least some of their discs, like the Envy, they had to make a whole new mold for it to work with Electron plastic, because it wasn't molding up properly in the original mold. In another Lab Report, they addressed the changes to flight since moving production in-house. They said they were trying to be more consistent by allowing discs to cool longer inside the mold, rather than outside the mold. However, while this is more consistent, as it takes out several environmental factors, this leads to flatter, more stable discs across the board, and some customers started complaining at the loss of dome from the outsourced production. So, MVP has started experimenting with how to achieve that same consistent flight in spite of plastic blend differences, and, in the most recent Lab Report, showed that they were able to even match Eclipse plastic to be the same as Neutron/Proton/Plasma, etc.
Anyway, with that, and with conversations with MVP employees I've had, I can say that, Eclipse and Electron are the only 2 plastics MVP has outright said affect the stability of the discs. With Fission, yes, they have adjusted the flight numbers on a couple of discs, but that may be due to them making new molds for the discs. They haven't confirmed that, and in fact have also stated at times, that the gyro effect as enhanced by Fission, should make a disc more high speed stable. The evidence is there that this is the case as well, and that where we see "flippy" versions of Fission discs, versus "stable" versions of Fission discs, are from run variations as you can see drastically different parting line height and dome between some runs of Fission discs.
One good example is the Fission Photon. I have one in particular that is very domey with a very low PLH. It is, as expected, extremely flippy. But there are other runs of Fission Photons that are flat, with a PLH that matches other plastic types, and those Photons, if anything, fly more stable than a Neutron counterpart in the same weight.
Craves are another good example. I bought 2 Fission Craves when they were released, and compared the PLH and dome to my (probably 2nd run) Hokom Craves. That run of Hokoms I have are very true to numbers at -1/1. The Fission had almost identical PLH and dome, but flew much more HSS, with the same minimal fade. All else being equal, it seems like the Fission effect is causing the Crave to hold its high speed stability longer, making it hold whatever line I put it on without drift, while not really affecting the fade too much as it loses its spin.
So, my point to all of that is, yes, some plastics cool differently, causing some minor variation in PLH and dome, but, companies also aren't consistent in how they allow discs to cool, temperature in warehouses, humidity, etc, so, it's much more likely to see differences based on those environmental factors, than based on plastic type. With the exception of Glow and Base plastic.
And, as far as plastic types like Gstar and Star and Champion goes, the fact that Champion is supposed to be the most stable, yet I've had, for instance, Valkyries in Star be much more stable than my Champion Valkyries, back when I was throwing them, but also had Champion Teebirds be much more stable than Star, my experiences just don't back up that the plastic affects it enough to count on. I think the bigger thing we see between those plastic types is how they beat in. Champion tends to beat in slower than Star, so eventually, it will always feel more stable. I think with MVP specifically, because the OM is pretty much the same plastic regardless of the core, we see less variation in how discs beat in, with the exception of Electron, so the plastics mean even less for MVP from a stability standpoint. Prism rims might be the exception, but I don't think we've had them long enough to really know for sure.
Anyway, with that, and with conversations with MVP employees I've had, I can say that, Eclipse and Electron are the only 2 plastics MVP has outright said affect the stability of the discs. With Fission, yes, they have adjusted the flight numbers on a couple of discs, but that may be due to them making new molds for the discs. They haven't confirmed that, and in fact have also stated at times, that the gyro effect as enhanced by Fission, should make a disc more high speed stable. The evidence is there that this is the case as well, and that where we see "flippy" versions of Fission discs, versus "stable" versions of Fission discs, are from run variations as you can see drastically different parting line height and dome between some runs of Fission discs.
One good example is the Fission Photon. I have one in particular that is very domey with a very low PLH. It is, as expected, extremely flippy. But there are other runs of Fission Photons that are flat, with a PLH that matches other plastic types, and those Photons, if anything, fly more stable than a Neutron counterpart in the same weight.
Craves are another good example. I bought 2 Fission Craves when they were released, and compared the PLH and dome to my (probably 2nd run) Hokom Craves. That run of Hokoms I have are very true to numbers at -1/1. The Fission had almost identical PLH and dome, but flew much more HSS, with the same minimal fade. All else being equal, it seems like the Fission effect is causing the Crave to hold its high speed stability longer, making it hold whatever line I put it on without drift, while not really affecting the fade too much as it loses its spin.
So, my point to all of that is, yes, some plastics cool differently, causing some minor variation in PLH and dome, but, companies also aren't consistent in how they allow discs to cool, temperature in warehouses, humidity, etc, so, it's much more likely to see differences based on those environmental factors, than based on plastic type. With the exception of Glow and Base plastic.
And, as far as plastic types like Gstar and Star and Champion goes, the fact that Champion is supposed to be the most stable, yet I've had, for instance, Valkyries in Star be much more stable than my Champion Valkyries, back when I was throwing them, but also had Champion Teebirds be much more stable than Star, my experiences just don't back up that the plastic affects it enough to count on. I think the bigger thing we see between those plastic types is how they beat in. Champion tends to beat in slower than Star, so eventually, it will always feel more stable. I think with MVP specifically, because the OM is pretty much the same plastic regardless of the core, we see less variation in how discs beat in, with the exception of Electron, so the plastics mean even less for MVP from a stability standpoint. Prism rims might be the exception, but I don't think we've had them long enough to really know for sure.
Been tossing a CN Crave a bit early this year. Originally I wanted something to fill the gap between the Truth and Undertaker. This ain't it. Crave flies just as far as the undertaker, but on a tighter line. That said, it's making me consider dropping undertakers, which is crazy to say, as I've thrown undies for several years now.
Time well tell. Fun disc regardless.
Time well tell. Fun disc regardless.
Awkward Accountant
Bogey Member
The Hex is my favorite disc and the Crave flies just like a faster Hex. I can guarantee nothing will be kicking it out of my bag for a long time. Such a straight flight with so much torque resistance.
they're sneaky long too. can't tell you how many times I've emptied my bag in a field and found my beat Crave within 20' of my Mayhems.
auzcar
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The Crave replaced my Undertakers, although the Undies still comes out sometimes. I measured the rims and the difference is quite small, I've never found the Undertakers to fly like a 9 speed and the Crave definitely flies faster than a 6,5 speed IMO. I find the Crave to be a bit more understable though.
I have yet to throw a Crave that flies like any of my Hexes. I have been throwing Craves since they were released and the old PP ones for the most part flew 7/5/0/2. The new Hokoms I've thrown have flown anywhere between 7/5/-2/1 to 7/5/-1/1, and the new Plasmas I have fly closer to PP at 7/5/0/1.5. But Hexes, to me, are more like 5/5/-0.5/0.5. I wouldn't complain about a Crave like that, but they're just different flights for me. I use them for very different shots most of the time. They both bomb for their speed class, but take different flights getting there (for me). And my sample size isn't huge, but not insignificant. I have 9 Hexes and about 12 Craves currently (though I've had a lot more Craves over the years).
Well if we are splitting hairs.... my fr se N hex is likely the most stable I've handled at 5 5 0 .5 (1?). My pp plasma 155 crave was about 7 5 -.5 1, pp N about 7 5 0 1.5... Wolfey threw it 7 5 0 0 (.5?) though
I can see it being a fair comparison.
I can see it being a fair comparison.
VictorB
* Ace Member *
Kind of similar to the setup I'm using. Crave sits between OLF and Rift...Straighter than an OLF but goes further on a lower line than a Rift and handles a bit more power. It definitely fills a need for a straight shooter fairway (where the OLF is more of a control driver)
thatdirtykid
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I agree, yes a mid will fly a tighter line, but I can manipulate my more stable craves (0, 2) or my middle of the road craves (-1, 1.5) to fly similar tight straight lines. I bag craves because they are capable of tighter straighter shots and slower turning less finishing shots better than most any 7ish speed disc I have tried.
thatdirtykid
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Myself as well. chameleon turns and fades predictably, but craves dont turn and dont fade predictably.
I think some people run into discs like the hex and rift to a point (squall even more) and it creeps on the uses they would get out of a 7 speed. I can see wanting to step up to something faster. I love my beaded mids cause I feel like it hampers that overlap just a little and gives my 7 speeds more room to breathe.
Myself as well. chameleon turns and fades predictably, but craves dont turn and dont fade predictably.
It just depends on power level and shot shape.. I tend to lean towards a little flex shot (for reasons of form/power level). When people were talking about shaping with a pp plasma and laser line drivers with a pp N I picked both up. Good disc but I was underwhelmed, thought I'd use it for wind but it didnt hold up. When my buddy threw my pp N I knew what I'd been missing (power
) a sweet, long laser straight flight.Speaking of PP crave, does anybody know of anything that flies like a PP crave? I would do a lot of things to have a consistent supply of something that has the same flight. Tiniest hint of turn, tiniest hint of fade, absolute laser and low profile so it felt incredible backhand and forehand. Tried… a lot of things haha
thatdirtykid
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It just depends on power level and shot shape.. I tend to lean towards a little flex shot (for reasons of form/power level). When people were talking about shaping with a pp plasma and laser line drivers with a pp N I picked both up. Good disc but I was underwhelmed, thought I'd use it for wind but it didnt hold up. When my buddy threw my pp N I knew what I'd been missing (power
When you take that single line from my post it makes me realize how poorly worded my answer was. I find craves to be the right balance of decent high speed stability with shockingly low LSS. It hard to find a disc that wants to go as straight.
Again I'm not a huge crave guy, but the stock (not circuit) flat top rhythms seem like they might fit that bill. Hard to tell at my sub 300' power though. Obviously my friend made my crave work better than me but that what I'm using, or a circuit rhythm but I pack both.
Some of the newer Plasma Craves seem to fly closer to PP Craves. Maybe newer runs in general will be closer, but I've only thrown Plasma of the newer runs.
