Best way beginners can gain distance?

[Art Stryker]

The back foot set up for approaches got screwed up somehow.

Have no clue how to fix it.

I'll try to explain.

Your back foot more in front of your front foot to throw it right.

Your back foot should be more behind you to throw it left.

Hope this makes sense

 

[RowingBoats]

The back foot set up for approaches got screwed up somehow.

Have no clue how to fix it.

I'll try to explain.

Your back foot more in front of your front foot to throw it right.

Your back foot should be more behind you to throw it left.

Hope this makes sense

This seems like a really strange way to visualize footwork.

Personally I think of it more as a line through the offset of my feet. Maybe doing so would help you?

 

[ChrisinFL]

My son and I videoed each other. Yikes! So much worse than I thought. Looks like almost every part of our throwing needs improvement! Ugh. I guess I will watch, and rewatch - work on everything, but also maybe try to pick out one worst thing to focus on improving. Now I see why improvement takes time. Definitely not going to work on this mess and look like a pro overnight.

 

[Brychanus]

My short drives is my weak link. I have been playing about 3 months, so all areas still need work…. I usually play multiple rounds a week, do multiple field days a week, as well as some back yard putting (broke down and bought me an MVP Black Hole Pro for $150 on Amazon - worth it!). Addicted - watch videos or read improvement discussions multiple times a day! Even more addicted to buying discs - up to 40 already! I am finally breaking 200 feet sometimes - my longest drives right now tend to be Lat 64 Diamond or River - but I average 175-200 feet. Wondering, what are the most common issues that keep beginners stuck at 200 foot drives? I try to implement tips on improving form, but I can't get that "snap" I read about. Any help appreciated! -ChrisinFL

I'll take the opportunity to respond to you directly, then weave in some general advice for any lurkers.

Chris, sounds like you throw a lot so I'm keeping that in mind.
When I started I could barely throw 100'. I marched myself up to 300'+ drives with nearly brute force through my upper body and no input to my form and gained several injuries, some of them permanent. I throw farther more easily now and spend more of my time optimizing efficiency and learning and addressing issues in my body that prevent me from accessing the best move(s). I'm 37 and have a fairly disadvantageous body for disc golf on top of my recent injuries, and this has contributed to my obsession with mechanics and athletic training. I think these things together have helped me the most:

1. Consider all sources of input critically and reject bad advice. How can you know what's "bad"? IMHO, learn as much as you can from sources outside of disc golf where people have been throwing or swinging things for more than 100 years where legitimate science (or "science adjacent") methods have influenced the sport with clear results and significant financial incentives to improve players objectively. If you believe that throwing a disc far is magically different than other throwing sports (accounting for a few exotic adjustments), stop to ask yourself why.

2. Adjust all advice for your body. Become aware of and address physical limitations when they arise.

3. Get someone who knows a lot more than you to give you input if you can.

4. Be willing to work at your goals.

5. Rest when you need to. At some point in the last few months it became obvious that I was asking my body to do something much more like pitching or swinging a golf club for distance, which is something I've never done before. Neuromuscular and body adaptation are real things, take longer as you get older, and require deliberate practice and rest to work. Kids soak it up like sponges, recover faster and better, and integrate the physical demands more seamlessly as they grow up. I've seen the rare older player with elite athleticism make significant distance gains quickly, but that appears to be very uncommon. Most people get too impatient and either get hurt or just trapped in cycles of bad habits. YMMV.

This is my favorite image that completely changed how I understand physical development. Shift the time to further out the older you are. Even when I move better, I remind myself that the most vulnerable, hardest to heal tissues (Ligaments, tendons, and cartilage) take weeks and weeks to catch up to new movements. I have planned and spaced out my distance-pushing behavior accordingly. I'm impatient as fuck but have paid the body tax too often already, and have no choice.

6. Realize that throwing far and throwing far for golf distance are mechanically deeply related.

7. Don't believe in magic.

8. Learn to throw standstills, especially if you don't have a lot of similar athletic background.

9. Your development will be yours and no one else's. That's ok. Have fun!

 

[Brychanus]

General musings on distance expectations
My advice to anyone is to pick a clear goal, set reasonable expectations, and get the best input to your form development you can. Not all teaching and learning styles are the same, and remember that adults have more significant and different learning issues relative to children.

Regarding distance expectations, I continue to be interested in this topic and how dramatically skewed folks' expectations are by watching top throwers on tour (i.e., those most frequently in video coverage).

First, Infinite discs did an informal survey a few years ago. As far as I know this was all self-report methodology, and you can expect the usual biases in memory and estimate inflation can influence these distributions. Even so, you can immediately see that even when people are just reporting whatever these numbers mean, distance claims of 400' and higher are a minority and diminish with age.

It is also meaningful to compare completely freewheeling, unprincipled throws for absolute distance with those for golf lines (I would argue this is a continuum/blurry distinction). For example, iIn a personal correspondence from SocraDeez musing about whether anyone can throw 500', (I hope he doesn't mind me sharing), he provided a distance exorcism to me:

"Distance lines are distance lines. Trajectory and nose angle take serious practice. What's the ratio of golf distance to max distance? Definitely not 1:1. But it could be in the neighborhood of 0.8, or 400 to 500. Whatever the case may be, the golf distance is more significant and more skillful. 400' disc golf line ability is rare. There are a few thousand unique people that regularly play in Indianapolis, and I bet less than 1-2% (so ~ 30-50 people maybe) can throw 400' golf lines. Personally, I know maybe two dozen players that have this kind of golf distance in the City. Indiana does a big Club challenge tournament every year. Almost all of these players were picked for their Club teams for their respective counties/Clubs.

7 or 8 out of 10 players for the Indy team had this distance. We won for the second year in a row just last week. (I don't play on the team, just help administer). Of the neighboring counties/Clubs that sent teams from the Indy metro down to Southern IN to compete, Hendricks County had 1 or 2 out of 10 players with this golf distance. Hamilton County Disc Golf Union had about 5 out of 10 with this golf distance. Johnson County had 2 players with this golf distance.

Hamilton County took 2nd place last year, 3rd place this year. Fort Wayne is another strong team that finished 2nd this year, 3rd last year. I don't know their players personally to estimate distances for the whole team, but I witnessed one of them push 500' on a backhand golf line. Over winter, Payton Staman and I counted how many players in the entire state of Indiana could throw 500' golf distance: we estimated it at about a dozen total. 400' of golf distance would certainly be enough to consistently win league events and tournaments locally, almost anywhere you live.

Scott Stokely lived in Fort Collins a bit when Mike Randolph was living there and going to Colorado State. There might have been one other player in the area, but I forget. Anyway: it was much talked about at the time that there was not one, but two players in the area that could throw 500+ golf distance. In the Indianapolis metro. right now, it's two players. So - less rare these days maybe, but still very rare. There's one other player who's young, tall, & lanky that can get there sometimes on distance lines, but he doesn't really even have 400' golf distance yet."

 

[Brychanus]

Grab bag of thoughts:

We tend to forget how little use videos and descriptions made for experienced golfers are to those who are just starting out.

Heck, I've been playing disc golf for 21 years, and I still have ZERO idea what the heck sidewinder meant by responding to my form analysis request with a video of him pushing a pool cue into a wall...

These words might not help you, but I enjoy the whole "disc golf drill translation problem." He was trying to teach you to march and shift your body mass targetward with your feet neutral and squared up properly while allowing the pool cue to coil you back away from the target. This is also what he usually means by "shifting your center of gravity getting pulled taut." This drill generally helps people access a longer swing and can help them develop more center balance. They can also develop the elastic stretch through the latissimus dorsi and oblique slings against the rear leg as your body weight shifts forward. Almost every single player I've seen struggles to develop these mechanics and if you go the drill route it can take some significant fussing and adjustment to fix it. I sure as hell relate to that. YMMV.

Video and self-reflection is crucial, but as a new player try to not get overwhelmed. Pick one thing that looks off, and focus on that comparison and that fix. You're going to see a lot of things that are off, like the footwork you're agonizing over.

For foot work: my advice to new players is to get athletic (like a player preparing to play defense in another sport, bend a bit at the knees and feel springy and ready to move) and to focus on remaining balanced and powerful. If you start to feel out of control or off-balance as you're driving, you're probably finding a way to lose power in there. You don't want necessarily long or short steps, you want the steps that help you establish power from your base.

Though sometimes you do gotta get a lil out of control to test the boundaries and expand your power when you're in the field, you want to focus on getting a feel for your form first and what it feels like to just be comfortably powerful and balanced.

Additionally - check out grip videos. Without a good firm grip, it is hard to diagnose anything else because other corrections will mean nothing if you're unable to transfer power to the disc.

I like all of this. I was an "unathletic" player and realized that the closest thing I had access to was boxing. It didn't fix most problems but still helps me figure out what mode to get my body in before I throw.

There are a wealth of videos and tutorials online about perfecting your form. I want to stress, these are long term goals. It is not easy to quickly gain distance, despite what any video will tell you.

If I'm ever giving lessons to new players, I usually say these are the things I wish I had known as a beginner.

1 - You throw with your hips and your core, not your arm as you would a catch frisbee. As long as you are only using your arm to throw, your distance is going to suffer.

2 - You aim for the apex of the flight, not the target. The disc will do the rest after that. When you are a beginner, aiming for the target is almost guaranteed to have your disc fade earlier than you want it to.

Love this.

I think there is a lot of truth to this, but I also think there is a lot of value with playing around with all of the weird drills and concepts.

SW's stuff absolutely 100% helped me get my basic competent swing down, but I also dedicated a lot of time to simply swinging my body around trying to figure out how some of these drills can possibly apply. Some of it I didn't get for a long time, some of it I likely still don't get but think I do, but...the end result was undeniable.

One of the keys to using SW's style of drill is to detach it from the literal, actual swing. I did get stuck in something of a rut by trying to micromanage 'poses' in the swing, rather than taking a more holistic view and applying the underlying concepts to what my body naturally wants to do.

Donno, definitely not disagreeing with you, but I also don't want people to be too discouraged by that style of content, because for some of us it does work.

Sidewinder will occasionally remind people that he made all of his content in response to discussions here at the time. Trouble is that it takes a bit of a historian to sift through it. I started my Fundamentals project because I had a hard time figuring out all of the connections between concepts and I'm wired to look for that kind of thing.

As you (RB) know, I also agree that it's way too easy to get "pose" centered and stuck micromanaging issues, and I think that's a problem with Forum-mediated form feedback sometimes. I don't think I really started to learn what I was supposed to learn until I started just letting it be an athletic task swinging big stuff around and integrate the feedback in that frame of mind.

Worth mentioning that Sidewinder also did it all for free other than whatever marginal ad revenue he gets from his YT channel. I have paid him (not enough IMO) for the level of intensity and detail he's helped me struggle through in my own development. And of course, the way the throw is perceived changes as a player's own throw evolves.

 

[ChrisinFL]

Beginner, trying to get my drives past 175-200 feet: After one of my worst (driver) rounds on a course yesterday, I found the attached Dave Dunipace "tip of the whip" video last night. Especially the parts about levers, coiling up, and generating all speed to get max speed at the release point, resonated with me. Well, I just spent from 8:30-11am at my practice field, mostly throwing 20 drivers over and over again, gradually improving. By the last couple of times, I got a higher percentage of 200 foot drives than ever before, and I am starting to get a drive out to 225 feet every now and then! Only 1-3 out of 20, for now, but it is a start! Furthest legitimate drives I have ever had - only once before have I ever got that distance, and that was on a downhill hole, with wind at my back. Also, I watched video from a few days ago of myself throwing. First thing I noticed, for me, it is much easier to evaluate in slow motion! Second thing, I was throwing too low (near my waist), and way worse, rounding with my arm almost every time. Also, often bringing my head up/around too soon. I am trying to correct my form! I quit doing a straight reach back altogether (per Dave on the video), and just keep my elbow bent - that is helping a lot with the rounding issue. I am coiling up more, and can tell it is getting me a bit faster spin. I still have a long ways to go, but making progress!!! Two steps forward, one back - but, progress! I can't wait to try more drives, and soon get more video - see if I can notice the progress, and figure out where I still have issues. The first videos of me, WAY TOO BAD - I can self correct stuff so embarrassingly bad! Hopefully I eventually improve enough to post video of my throw on this site and ask for help.

timehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1PHi-zgXIY

 

[mrrhino4]

What discs are your drivers?

 

[ChrisinFL]

I use Lat 64 Diamond Retro Burst the most. It is an 8 speed, 6 glide, but beginner friendly and pretty straight. Mess with many others slightly faster and slower than that, but none used nearly as much. I have a Roadrunner Star, 9 speed 5 glide, that I can get some nice throws and distance with, but I play with my son once or twice a week (about half of the time that I play), and it is his favorite, so I let him bag it. On my list to eventually snag one or two more of them. A month ago Leopard was my go to, but now combination of throwing faster and form still pretty bad, means it usually goes right and often even turns into a roller (which I don't like, and have no control over). I said previously I been playing 3-4 months, but looked up when I bought our two beginner sets - actually only been a little over two months. Seems longer!

 

[txmxer]

Distance is based on multiple variables, but the king is speed. The speed of the disc out of the hand determines the potential distance.

Nose angle factors in. It is the primary factor between min/max distance at a given speed.

 

[ChrisinFL]

Video and self-reflection is crucial, but as a new player try to not get overwhelmed. Pick one thing that looks off, and focus on that comparison and that fix. You're going to see a lot of things that are off, like the footwork you're agonizing over.

For foot work: my advice to new players is to get athletic (like a player preparing to play defense in another sport, bend a bit at the knees and feel springy and ready to move) and to focus on remaining balanced and powerful. If you start to feel out of control or off-balance as you're driving, you're probably finding a way to lose power in there. You don't want necessarily long or short steps, you want the steps that help you establish power from your base.

Though sometimes you do gotta get a lil out of control to test the boundaries and expand your power when you're in the field, you want to focus on getting a feel for your form first and what it feels like to just be comfortably powerful and balanced.

Additionally - check out grip videos. Without a good firm grip, it is hard to diagnose anything else because other corrections will mean nothing if you're unable to transfer power to the disc.

I have noticed lately grip being an issue at times. Florida, with summer heat, so it makes sense that, especially when I start to get tired, I run out of energy, and struggle with my drives, and especially not having enough power in my grip. I suppose grip strength work would be helpful. But, a free boost will come as summer passes and we head toward cooler weather. Plus, something to work on - I am pretty sure I am not transferring enough power from my legs to my throw. On plus side, 3 months in, and my group of 3-4 guys continue to improve and have fun. A few weeks ago my son and I videoed each other, and I made a much needed correction - I was rounding big time! Need more video asap - definitely helps! What I thought I was doing and what I was actually doing were worlds apart!

 

[ChrisinFL]

Slow down, stop trying to throw it hard. Smooth is far. Don't bend over. Pull from your shoulders, not your belly. Plant foot lands first then throw. Head should follow your disc.

Well, took me a while to figure this one out, but you nailed one of my issues. Shame on me for not remembering it and trying it right away! I was starting my throw while moving forward - made sense to me that would use the momentum to add power. Some credit to a Scott Stokely video here, that I watched earlier that day. Last night, after playing 9 holes, I had just enough time before the park closed to throw a few drives on one hole. I remembered the SS video saying make sure you step to brace leg first, before starting the throwing motion. Changed that one thing, used the 7 fairway/distance drivers I had in my bag, and 5-6 of them went my furthest ever! Can't wait to get to the practice field, throw a bunch more discs, see if I can repeat this, and if so, see how many feet I actually add. Hopefully today!!!

 

[Mike C]

I have noticed lately grip being an issue at times. Florida, with summer heat, so it makes sense that, especially when I start to get tired, I run out of energy, and struggle with my drives, and especially not having enough power in my grip. I suppose grip strength work would be helpful. But, a free boost will come as summer passes and we head toward cooler weather. Plus, something to work on - I am pretty sure I am not transferring enough power from my legs to my throw. On plus side, 3 months in, and my group of 3-4 guys continue to improve and have fun. A few weeks ago my son and I videoed each other, and I made a much needed correction - I was rounding big time! Need more video asap - definitely helps! What I thought I was doing and what I was actually doing were worlds apart!

Grab some rock climbers chalk. Makes a world of difference when it comes to grip when you live in warmer climates.

Having dry discs and dry hands is essential for throwing good disc golf.

 

[ChrisinFL]

Well, took me a while to figure this one out, but you nailed one of my issues. Shame on me for not remembering it and trying it right away! I was starting my throw while moving forward - made sense to me that would use the momentum to add power. Some credit to a Scott Stokely video here, that I watched earlier that day. Last night, after playing 9 holes, I had just enough time before the park closed to throw a few drives on one hole. I remembered the SS video saying make sure you step to brace leg first, before starting the throwing motion. Changed that one thing, used the 7 fairway/distance drivers I had in my bag, and 5-6 of them went my furthest ever! Can't wait to get to the practice field, throw a bunch more discs, see if I can repeat this, and if so, see how many feet I actually add. Hopefully today!!!

Step, brace, then start the throw! Well, the technique correction is causing me to have more erratic (aka horrible) throws while I get used to it, but easy to see it is much needed! My error was that I was starting my throw while stepping to the brace foot, and it was killing my power. My previous longest throw was the rare 225', with more common 200', and normal in the 175-200' range. Well, at the practice field yesterday, I got 3-4 throws out to 245', and a few more around 225'. The adjustment will take a little time, but that only means I will get better, and probably, hopefully, even add a little more distance as I get more work with the improvement in technique! Also, my longest disc had been Diamonds. Well, I recently bought some light weight Mambas, a Beast, and a Tern. While I am less consistent with them, I definitely get more distance with them. The Mambas require me to throw on a hyzer angle that flips to straight, so, learning, learning, learning! I have started playing with a guy that is much better than me - definitely helps - watching and listening to a guy playing at a much higher level. Also, he got his first ever ace yesterday - a 270' hole in one (with a 7 speed, 5 glide disc)! It was amazing for me even just to see it!

 

[ChrisinFL]

How far do you throw? I think that is pertinent to the discussion.I'm 60 and top out at about 360' after 4 years of play. The double disc workouts got me from 260 to where I am now really quickly

Fastest way to learn is to get to know the feel of the form which a heavier object is exceptional at illustrating. If you can't figure out how to throw a heavier object without hurting yourself, chances are you won't ever learn to throw a disc properly either.

I may break out a few hammers and a sledge hammer soon. But, I watched a Scott Stokely video yesterday, and figured out a major technique flaw - I was starting my throw while still stepping to my brace foot. Step, brace, start the throw. I am still erratic breaking in the change, but immediately I added 20' to my longest throw to date. I need to get used to this a bit more, but once I get a little more comfortable with it, then, hammer time!

 

[ChrisinFL]

I use Lat 64 Diamond Retro Burst the most. It is an 8 speed, 6 glide, but beginner friendly and pretty straight. Mess with many others slightly faster and slower than that, but none used nearly as much. I have a Roadrunner Star, 9 speed 5 glide, that I can get some nice throws and distance with, but I play with my son once or twice a week (about half of the time that I play), and it is his favorite, so I let him bag it. On my list to eventually snag one or two more of them. A month ago Leopard was my go to, but now combination of throwing faster and form still pretty bad, means it usually goes right and often even turns into a roller (which I don't like, and have no control over). I said previously I been playing 3-4 months, but looked up when I bought our two beginner sets - actually only been a little over two months. Seems longer!

I got a 155g Roadrunner, plus a 175g (Innova F2 freebie). Loading up some Innova F2s lately - 3-4 almost every Friday. My new longest discs (but also still very erratic) are all light weight: Innova Mamba, Tern, Beast, and a MVP Fission Wave. Lat 64 Diamonds are still my most reliable for sure.

 

[ChrisinFL]

Still a struggle to make sure I plant first, before starting my throw. Then a struggle to start with hips-shoulders, and keep my head watching my disc and not turning too soon. Then struggle to keep from rounding. But, the instances when I do it all right are getting a little more common…. Then trying to work on getting a decent reach back, and a full length of motion and straight throw. Two steps forward, one back. Keep hoping to find that elusive snap! Plus, watching recent video, I am not always getting my body to spin around on my follow through.

 

[Kolya Schubert]

I would practice by snapping towels.

 

[ChrisinFL]

I would practice by snapping towels.

I know how to snap towels, but how does that apply to throwing a disc? Are you saying just before the disc comes out of my hand, I have to pull my hand back against it? I have tried flicking my wrist many times, but it seems to make no difference: I have read both sides - some saying you have to flick your wrist, and others saying don't flick your wrist. I have used mostly a common power grip - four fingers underneath against the rim, more recently used three fingers with the pinkie off, and just the last two practice field sessions experimented with changing my grip around a lot - thumb more forward, more back, further towards the center or towards the edge of the disc. Tried pinching thumb down harder, taking index finger off rim and pinch it to flight plate directly below the thumb. None of it seemed to make any difference. ???

 

[ChrisinFL]

Okay, so today's practice field session, at the end, realizing if I seem to almost hold the disc too long, I would end up throwing it right of center (aim), but it was going straight and far (but right of my aim). Was nearly done by then, but wondering now, if I set up my aim a little more left, then hold it too long on purpose, potential distance progress, or just going to make things worse???!