Discover new ways to elevate your game with the updated DGCourseReview app! It's entirely free and enhanced with features shaped by user feedback to ensure your best experience on the course. (App Store or Google Play)
I don't think the phrase 'exceeding genetic capability' makes any sense. All of the variables you listed are further augmented by an increase in applied genetic capability.
Freakish throws indicate that one is not routinely harnessing one's fullest potential.
I feel like all my furthest throws were a combination of disc choice, wind, temperature, etc. I don't feel like I did anything magical or different than before, but the disc simply hit the wind and glided much further than usual.
500ft is an interesting distance. I would guess any somewhat healthy male, if they stay with it, should eventually be able to throw 160ft further than a near 60 year old man.
If you are talking "how far can you throw ?" It needs to be a repeatable action. With so many extra variables of disc golf, it would be silly to say you can throw 500' when your normal long throw is 350' but you hit 500' in some anomalous circumstance.
The video is about baseball and a pitcher doesn't get to claim 95 mph because he throws from a moving vehicle.
Exceeding ones genetic capability is marketing hype. Usain Bolt doesn't exceed his capabilities, he is just closer to his limit than most.
500ft is an interesting distance. I would guess any somewhat healthy male, if they stay with it, should eventually be able to throw 160ft further than a near 60 year old man.
I agree Usain Bolt is closer to his limit, but his capabilities (in running at least) are higher than your average human to start with.
My question would be, "Is there a genetic limit to a disc golf player, and if so what would it be"? If it was possible to download Paul's ability into someone like Big Germ or Brodie, could Paul make up the difference? If Paige was a physically larger person, could anyone touch her?
Running, cycling, basketball, gymnastics, etc., all reward a certain body type. Does disc golf? Looking at Eagle and GG makes it hard to tell.
But just to go on record, I agree with you that not everyone can throw 500.
I agree Usain Bolt is closer to his limit, but his capabilities (in running at least) are higher than your average human to start with.
My question would be, "Is there a genetic limit to a disc golf player, and if so what would it be"? If it was possible to download Paul's ability into someone like Big Germ or Brodie, could Paul make up the difference? If Paige was a physically larger person, could anyone touch her?
Running, cycling, basketball, gymnastics, etc., all reward a certain body type. Does disc golf? Looking at Eagle and GG makes it hard to tell.
But just to go on record, I agree with you that not everyone can throw 500.
I am curious about the ideal body type for this sport as well. Ancient sports like running and gymnastics have been studied and trained for...for centuries. There have behemoth training machines that can take children and hammer them for their entire lives into elite athletes, pruning the crop mercilessly until they emerge as an Olympian. Disc golf just doesn't have this yet, so there is no real way to know.
I am curious about the ideal body type for this sport as well. Ancient sports like running and gymnastics have been studied and trained for...for centuries. There have behemoth training machines that can take children and hammer them for their entire lives into elite athletes, pruning the crop mercilessly until they emerge as an Olympian. Disc golf just doesn't have this yet, so there is no real way to know.
We can look at the top 20 ranking and see some patterns for the overall golf aspect(rather than just distance). Only one guy below average height and the shorter guys have some ape factor and quick athletes. Average height about 6'1" for the top 20 (only 14% of men are 6' or taller).
I was lucky enough to have famous high school coach Morgan Wootten has a home room teacher. He used to tell a story where he made a bet if at +50 year old if he could dunk.
He would then grab a step ladder and proceed to dunk. He then stated that it was within the rules of the agreement, that not using a ladder had not been established.
Sorry to chime in with a pedantic point, but I would counter-argue that the definition of dunk HAS been established and it has never included a step ladder...but I get what he was saying
I have nothing to add to this discussion other than that when I read the above line about hard, hard work, all I could think of was this great, great throw.
I think of form as a spectrum of many things that can come together (or not) to sling a disc. E.g., here's back in Dec. 2021 early in my form rebuild: https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/666068497
Pushing ~390' (landmark/GPS estimate) with a Pharaoh. There are a lot of things off in that throw & effort is in a lot of the wrong places at the wrong times. I also couldn't nearly as consistently summon 400' distance as I can now (and with significantly less effort) with my form at the time. In my case I have not been spending much time working with drivers or exploring max distance lines since I decided to stick with working out form fundamentals and am doing a lot with standstills as of now. So I don't know if I've moved my maximum up by much.
I love this thread b/c the notion of ceilings/expectations is interesting. The vid at the top was a little sobering for me at first. I highly doubt I'll ever be sniffing 500' given my body type, late start, and training history. But the idea that I can perhaps get "sitting" golf distance potential somewhere north of 400' keeps me motivated.
I really liked watching this round at the 2022 Challenge at Goat Hill with Philo Brathwaite:
Philo's throwing consistently in the low 60s mph (usually 61-63 or so, which seems to work out to low 400s of feet of flat distance in calm conditions per various sources). He's stacked up against Williams (~70mph/500', throws very far golf lines), Gibson (~75mph/550'+, throws mega far golf lines), and Barela (touching 81mph/600'+ in a golf round, Sweet Baby Jesus).
Spoiler: Philo ties Gibson and Barela in this round on a pretty open bomber course, and beats Williams by three strokes. In the long run, when Gibson is dialed in he will do things with the disc few people can do with his massive yet controlled power (often besting Barela with consistency, touch, putting etc). But Philo can hang in there on any given round with smart, clean lines. And of course he's got great overall golf skills. There's some hope for "the rest of us".
Yet in Steve's analysis there, you can see that you could reach 1000-rated golf (a ~top-400 in the world player) with a bit less than 400ft. You probably want 450ft for 1025 golf. You want 500ft (that elusive, "elite" level) if you want to have a bid at going toe to toe with the 1050-club.
And of course that's all saying nothing about putting, approaches, and so on that you need for a complete game. Once putting and approaches stop being separators (where many of us have plenty of room to improve!), the big guns shine. Steve's data uses averages of course, but I found it very interesting.
I like to dig into all of this because I want to keep getting better, and I keep in mind that even McBeth advises to "get the distance first" and dial things in after that. Easier said than done. So much work to do!
I think of form as a spectrum of many things that can come together (or not) to sling a disc. E.g., here's back in Dec. 2021 early in my form rebuild: https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/666068497
Pushing ~390' (landmark/GPS estimate) with a Pharaoh. There are a lot of things off in that throw & effort is in a lot of the wrong places at the wrong times. I also couldn't nearly as consistently summon 400' distance as I can now (and with significantly less effort) with my form at the time. In my case I have not been spending much time working with drivers or exploring max distance lines since I decided to stick with working out form fundamentals and am doing a lot with standstills as of now. So I don't know if I've moved my maximum up by much.
I love this thread b/c the notion of ceilings/expectations is interesting. The vid at the top was a little sobering for me at first. I highly doubt I'll ever be sniffing 500' given my body type, late start, and training history. But the idea that I can perhaps get "sitting" golf distance potential somewhere north of 400' keeps me motivated.
I really liked watching this round at the 2022 Challenge at Goat Hill with Philo Brathwaite:
Philo's throwing consistently in the low 60s mph (usually 61-63 or so, which seems to work out to low 400s of feet of flat distance in calm conditions per various sources). He's stacked up against Williams (~70mph/500', throws very far golf lines), Gibson (~75mph/550'+, throws mega far golf lines), and Barela (touching 81mph/600'+ in a golf round, Sweet Baby Jesus).
Spoiler: Philo ties Gibson and Barela in this round on a pretty open bomber course, and beats Williams by three strokes. In the long run, when Gibson is dialed in he will do things with the disc few people can do with his massive yet controlled power (often besting Barela with consistency, touch, putting etc). But Philo can hang in there on any given round with smart, clean lines. And of course he's got great overall golf skills. There's some hope for "the rest of us".
Yet in Steve's analysis there, you can see that you could reach 1000-rated golf (a ~top-400 in the world player) with a bit less than 400ft. You probably want 450ft for 1025 golf. You want 500ft (that elusive, "elite" level) if you want to have a bid at going toe to toe with the 1050-club.
And of course that's all saying nothing about putting, approaches, and so on that you need for a complete game. Once putting and approaches stop being separators (where many of us have plenty of room to improve!), the big guns shine. Steve's data uses averages of course, but I found it very interesting.
I like to dig into all of this because I want to keep getting better, and I keep in mind that even McBeth advises to "get the distance first" and dial things in after that. Easier said than done. So much work to do!
This is true, and josh anthon really only throws about 450-470 and tied AB. However, I caddied for my friend at goat hill and I will say even the more "middle of the pack" average joe 1000 rated players were all in the 475-500ft range. One guy on our card threw 590ft. I think some of the older guys make it work with smart golf and world class touch and putting (ie anthon) but I think that if you wanna put together 1000 rated rounds at a golf course really should be up there. Robbie C is a 940 rated player, great putter and touch player but he got almost dead last at MCO because he struggled with distance.
the impact of distance makes sense. If it is an 800' hole and a player has 400' of golf distance, he has to throw two very good throws at max/near max power to have a decent look at a 3.
Where as the 500' thrower can throw the same 400' shot at 75-85% power, or can push it out to closer to 500' on the first throw and have a 300-350' throw for a look at a 3.
the impact of distance makes sense. If it is an 800' hole and a player has 400' of golf distance, he has to throw two very good throws at max/near max power to have a decent look at a 3.
Where as the 500' thrower can throw the same 400' shot at 75-85% power, or can push it out to closer to 500' on the first throw and have a 300-350' throw for a look at a 3.
One more "benchmark" is that even on some of the "shorter" par 3s, for every single person we played with, 380-400ft was a midrange shot. One guy threw his luna to 400. And these are not touring pros.
However, I caddied for my friend at goat hill and I will say even the more "middle of the pack" average joe 1000 rated players were all in the 475-500ft range. One guy on our card threw 590ft.
One more "benchmark" is that even on some of the "shorter" par 3s, for every single person we played with, 380-400ft was a midrange shot. One guy threw his luna to 400. And these are not touring pros.
Just want to add my two units of account. The above distances have not been my personal experience with "middle of the pack" 1000 rated players (middle is still probably ~ top 300 worldwide?).
Anecdotally, the golf distance I've seen when playing with ~ 1,000 rated players has been closer to Steve West's chart (linked by Brychanus above) at ~ 400 feet than in the 475-500 foot range, and definitely closer to 330-350 w/ Mids than 400.
I think the true, golf distance value of a 1,000 rated player is probably somewhere in between those two measures at about ~ 420.
Course types might have something to do with the variability in "witnessed" distance, though. Goat Hill seems extra distance friendly with the wide open spaces and elevation. More so than a course like Toboggan, which also rewards distance but in a more "golf shot" like way (in my opinion).
I can't find it now to link, but the PDGA has published the footage results from the distance competitions at Worlds in the past. I would wager that only about 50% of the best qualifying attempts by the top Pros in the distance competition at Worlds exceed 500 feet. Could be wrong, though.
One more "benchmark" is that even on some of the "shorter" par 3s, for every single person we played with, 380-400ft was a midrange shot. One guy threw his luna to 400. And these are not touring pros.
This has not been my experience, but mine is very limited. The handful of 1000 rated guys I've played with throw 370-450. A lot of them are one trick ponies in that they only have a BH or a FH but have decent distance, line hitting, shot shaping, and good putting. The BH guys in this category that are closer to the 450' mark are kind of like Nate Sexton if he didn't throw FH.
Guys I know that are 1020-1030 are hitting around 65-70 MPH and throwing 450-500+ BH.
Small sample, but my 2 cents.
Speed guns generally don't lie but distance estimates often are misleading. I went long throwing a mid on a 360' downhill shot that my card was throwing fairways and drivers at. A guy on my card approached me about throwing a mid 370' but the reality was that it was like a 320' throw.
