Clarity on potential oddball tourney scenario

[Pwingles]

Tournament setting, no painted circles around baskets.
Player is at his lie, and guesses its ~40 ish feet. He opts to step through his putt (assume putt is legal in all ways regarding stance and when it was released). Card mate says its a foot fault since he stepped thru and didnt maintain balance before advancing, obviously assuming he was in the 10 meter range.

What is the throwing players recourse here? The player calling the infraction doesn't need a 2nd to give the warning and re throw, but what if he is incorrect about the throwing players distance being appropriate?

Say the lie is still marked, and anyone can pace it off to verify the call being incorrect. Does the throwing player have the ability to have another player help them overturn this incorrect call? Or would it stand as called?

 

[araytx]

Tournament setting, no painted circles around baskets.
Player is at his lie, and guesses its ~40 ish feet. He opts to step through his putt (assume putt is legal in all ways regarding stance and when it was released). Card mate says its a foot fault since he stepped thru and didnt maintain balance before advancing, obviously assuming he was in the 10 meter range.

What is the throwing players recourse here? The player calling the infraction doesn't need a 2nd to give the warning and re throw, but what if he is incorrect about the throwing players distance being appropriate?

Say the lie is still marked, and anyone can pace it off to verify the call being incorrect. Does the throwing player have the ability to have another player help them overturn this incorrect call? Or would it stand as called?

Nah. They should use common sense. As soon as the thrower says, "I was sure I was outside the circle", if there's debate just step it off and decide from there.

That happened to me at Am Worlds last year. I called exactly that (and immediately before I knew that the putt was going in), and then another player said, "he's outside isn't he?" We were all standing in four different places because noone's approach was at the same angle, so I did have a distorted view. When I moved over to look, he was gonna step it off, and I said,"no don't bother I see now, and I stand corrected." no harm no foul. But if someone does step if off and it's outside the circle, the caller needs to affirm that there's no foot fault.

 

[teemkey]

I asked a similar question about warnings a few months back. The answer was that a single player can call a warning whenever they want, and the player being called must accept it and take the putt again observing the within the circle rules. Of course the putter could step putt again, challenging the other players on the card to second the call.

However, the correct response IMO is to step off the distance, and, IF the lie was outside 10 meters, ask the calling player to withdraw the warning. If the caller refuses to withdraw it, retake the putt (as above), but also call a courtesy violation (also a warning) on the original caller and report it to the TD.

Most players who are close to circle's edge will ask the card if the lie is outside the circle before they jump or step putt. Definitely the cleanest solution is to avoid confrontation.

 

[JedV]

I'm going to venture a guess that if it was still marked, then it's fair to measure it.

If that's not satisfactory to the person making the call, I'd defer to rule 801.01A which states that

These rules have been designed to promote fair play for all disc golfers. In using these rules, players shall apply the rule that most directly addresses the situation at hand. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision shall be made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness.

If it was outside the circle, the call was wrong - not fair and should be disregarded.

 

[Jimb]

Might it be a good idea to question the group before assuming that your step/jump putt is safe to make if it's close to the circle? (I know this doesn't help the op. Just wondering what others think.)

 

[JedV]

I asked a similar question about warnings a few months back. The answer was that a single player can call a warning whenever they want, and the player being called must accept it and take the putt again observing the within the circle rules. Of course the putter could step putt again, challenging the other players on the card to second the call.

However, the correct response IMO is to step off the distance, and, IF the lie was outside 10 meters, ask the calling player to withdraw the warning. If the caller refuses to withdraw it, retake the putt (as above), but also call a courtesy violation (also a warning) on the original caller and report it to the TD.

Most players who are close to circle's edge will ask the card if the lie is outside the circle before they jump or step putt. Definitely the cleanest solution is to avoid confrontation.

I 100 percent agree with your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs.

However, the sentiment in your first paragraph seems rife for abuse. What if you miss on the second shot, but it was a bunk call? Ultimately the first throw was legal. Disappointing that was the consensus that you received.

 

[Pwingles]

Might it be a good idea to question the group before assuming that your step/jump putt is safe to make if it's close to the circle? (I know this doesn't help the op. Just wondering what others think.)

That would be the best thing. Just curious what happens when the thrower sees it as not close and doesnt feel the need to ask. Like stated above, it was my understanding that the warning in most cases isnt debatable, but in a case where you could essentially prove your innocence, would that be acceptable?

In pretty much all other cases where a warning can be applied there is a subjective element, so argue all you want, but you get a warning. Can't think of any other situations right now where an infraction that gets a warning first can be challenged.

 

[teemkey]

I 100 percent agree with your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs.

However, the sentiment in your first paragraph seems rife for abuse. What if you miss on the second shot, but it was a bunk call? Ultimately the first throw was legal. Disappointing that was the consensus that you received.

To be clear, the advice I received was reflected in the first two sentences of the first paragraph, not the third.

 

[JedV]

To be clear, the advice I received was reflected in the first two sentences of the first paragraph, not the third.

No doubt

 

[Pbmercil]

99/100 the group should be able to resolve this. On the off chance that the rest of the group is convinced the putt was legal but the original caller is sure that it isnt and refuses to chance is mind the group can always appeal to an official or the TD. in this case I would call the second putt a provisional pending appeal and move on from there.

There are 2 easy ways to avoid this scenario. 1) ask first (i always do) 2) start jump putting at a more obvious distance instead of circles edge.

 

[krupicka]

I've told many players, "If you have to ask if you are far enough away, maybe you shouldn't be jump putting from there"

 

[Pbmercil]

I've told many players, "If you have to ask if you are far enough away, maybe you shouldn't be jump putting from there"

That's an unnecessarily sarcastic response to a simple curtesy.

 

[JC17393]

That's an unnecessarily sarcastic response to a simple curtesy.

Maybe it depends on your sense of humor and the atmosphere of the group, but I've said similar things to players who are at 35-36 feet and asking if they're outside...usually players I know well and who know me. I'm not saying it to discourage them from asking so much as to mock their desire to jump putt everything they're legally allowed to jump putt.

In the same vein, I can't count how many times such players have legally jump putted from 35-40 feet and sailed the putt past the basket, usually high, to whom I question their decision to jump (in jest, of course). "If only you hadn't jumped, it might have gone in".

In general though, it is always best to ask if it looks close. Better to be sure (or at least get consensus) before you throw than risk a call.

 

[JoakimBL]

99/100 the group should be able to resolve this. On the off chance that the rest of the group is convinced the putt was legal but the original caller is sure that it isnt and refuses to chance is mind the group can always appeal to an official or the TD. in this case I would call the second putt a provisional pending appeal and move on from there.

This is the correct answer.
In principle it also applies if everyone but the thrower agrees, however in that case the player has a poor case to present to the TD. The player can request that the TD/Official comes and makes a ruling, before continuing play. I would say that that is mostly in theory though. I don't don't foresee that to be a realistic scenario, under normal circumstances

 

[krupicka]

Maybe it depends on your sense of humor and the atmosphere of the group, but I've said similar things to players who are at 35-36 feet and asking if they're outside...usually players I know well and who know me. I'm not saying it to discourage them from asking so much as to mock their desire to jump putt everything they're legally allowed to jump putt.

In the same vein, I can't count how many times such players have legally jump putted from 35-40 feet and sailed the putt past the basket, usually high, to whom I question their decision to jump (in jest, of course). "If only you hadn't jumped, it might have gone in".

In general though, it is always best to ask if it looks close. Better to be sure (or at least get consensus) before you throw than risk a call.

Thank you for writing my post for me.

 

[PhattD]

Another, somewhat unrelated, thing to remember is: A jump putt from 9.8m is still a foot fault even if everyone on your card said you were outside 10m. I can't imagine someone calling you on it after they said it was OK but they could.

 

[araytx]

I've told many players, "If you have to ask if you are far enough away, maybe you shouldn't be jump putting from there"

While I will agree with that "mostly", not every player "jump-putts". I am primarily a straddle stance push putter (a la Nate S.) and I WILL ask at circles edge because getting that little bit of extra "umph" from my normal stance might every now and then cause my off foot to go forward a little bit after release. I want to know before I putt, if that's going to be a violation or not.

 

[Pwingles]

While I will agree with that "mostly", not every player "jump-putts". I am primarily a straddle stance push putter (a la Nate S.) and I WILL ask at circles edge because getting that little bit of extra "umph" from my normal stance might every now and then cause my off foot to go forward a little bit after release. I want to know before I putt, if that's going to be a violation or not.

This. But also, krup's opinion of whether or not he thinks i should be stepping thru from any distance is an not needed, or wanted. Just answer the question, imo, no reason to be a douche about it

 

[krupicka]

Some people have no sense of humor. And for the record, I do answer their question and if it is questionable walk it off for them.

 

[DavidSauls]

The more important point is that the rules now allow a warning to be given without being seconded---and that stance warnings come with a penalty (throw doesn't count). It's open for abuse by a single player, who doesn't have to be right about the stance violation---just willing to call it.