Dealing with the county

[sheaD]

So our county parks department has recently come to us and shut down any "organized" play at our course. This means no doubles, no monthlies, etc. They said unless we purchase a minimum 1 million dollar insurance policy, then we can not hold organized events. This came right after they had a fit about a wall that the club had placed to line a ditch which they deemend an insurance hazard and ripped down. My question is, Has anyone here had to deal with this type of scenario. If so, how did you work with the county to alleviate the situation. I know Charlotte has some pretty big "drop offs" at their courses, certainly the club has figured out a way to work with the county and their insurance guys somehow.

 

[DavidSauls]

Haven't had problems that severe yet, but there have been a number of posts about parks prohibiting organized play.

I've been told that the Charlotte club has liability insurance, required to run organized play in the public parks.

 

[New013]

yea i just saw this news on FB. i heard somewhere that if a boyscout troop helps maintain a course its insurance can cover people playing the course... might be worth checking out.

other than that drive right down to Pender to handle the business end of the organized event and then everybody just show up and play.

 

[John Rock]

So our county parks department has recently come to us and shut down any "organized" play at our course. This means no doubles, no monthlies, etc. They said unless we purchase a minimum 1 million dollar insurance policy, then we can not hold organized events. This came right after they had a fit about a wall that the club had placed to line a ditch which they deemend an insurance hazard and ripped down. My question is, Has anyone here had to deal with this type of scenario. If so, how did you work with the county to alleviate the situation. I know Charlotte has some pretty big "drop offs" at their courses, certainly the club has figured out a way to work with the county and their insurance guys somehow.

Did you get permission first to build the wall?

 

[Oklahyzer]

A) Insurance rules the world.

B) To avoid and alleviate, play by Their Rules...it's their property, after all.

Can't blame them for the insurance gig, especially if they've had any law suits to contend with in the past - that tends to make any property owner skittish, even cities. Building the wall without permission was just boneheaded, imho, and hopefully it didn't sour their opinion of your group to the point that they won't work with you in a positive way from here on out. Seriously...if it's not your property, you don't have rights and you shouldn't be doing stuff like that - especially if it's city/government property. D'oh!

That sucks, but if the meets and the course are good enough to want to continue, you might get the club to look into insurance (it's really not terribly expensive). A million sounds like a lot, but for group/business coverage it really isn't - I think one of the clubs I was in doubled that and if I remember correctly it was only about $800/yr. If you don't already have a club, forming one can be a hassle but it's not too expensive either. Once you get into official status, however, you need to keep up with the small amount of annual legal paperwork, and of course take the normal business paperwork/officer positions/elections seriously. You'll still be at the mercy of the property owners and their laws/policies, but being a more official and "businesslike" group usually gives you a measure of legitimacy in officials' eyes and they may be more willing to work with you or to allow oversights. Of course, if your club wants to have more control over the course, they may have you enter into a binding contract spelling out the limitations, responsibilities, and liabilities...try to avoid that if possible since it's like a free lunch for them with usually minimal benefit to you.

This is kinda the norm everywhere with public use land. I don't think it's been an frictional issue with our local dg clubs (on the contrary, we seem to have great relationships with the cities, thankfully), but I've seen this exact thing in other clubs a few times over. So basically unless they're willing to relent from the goodness of their official hearts, you guys are sorta screwed and need to step up or step off. Stinks, I know.

 

[sheaD]

The county told the club to build the wall. The club did it with their permission. The club has not put anything their without the counties permission. The county also deemed any bridge 3ft. above the ground a hazard and took those as well. Some of those were boy scout projects.

 

[Oklahyzer]

Ok...well, sounds like your county folks have some issues with planning or involvement then. lol. That's a little crazy to tell you to do something and then rip it out. 3' is actually a little generous when it comes to legal fears and bridges...stupid, but yeah. Bridges have been a major issue for our mountain bike club here - yes, after a lawsuit. At the root of it all: liability and insurance. Good luck with your meets...hope it all works out!

 

[Thumber]

The Ontario Disc Sports Association (ODSA) provides coverage for all ODSA DGrs in Ontario. It costs me $8 per year for the coverage. If you don't have a state DG org then I recommend contacting the PDGA to see what they can offer. Just because they require $1M coverage doesn't mean it costs $1M

 

[Cgkdisc]

Sanction the events with the PDGA including doubles and pay the extra $50 to get the certificate that covers the county.

 

[jrawk]

http://www.fdean.com/about-us.aspx

If you google sports insurance, you'll get a bunch of results. I contacted FDean for a quote in December for club coverage and was estimated $450 for a club with 50 people. That's $9 per person for 1 year ==> club dues.

 

[RustyP]

One of the local clubs I belong to is going through a similar situation right now. The best quote we found for a $1M policy was about $800/yr. We're going to hold club fundraiser events to cover some (hopefully most) of it. From what I understand, another club in the DFW area had the same problem, but was able to piggy-back on an insurance policy held by a local company owned by one of the club members. We're also looking into becoming a charitable / non-profit group so we can apply for grants to cover insurance cost. Let it be known that I know very little about insurance...this is just info given to me by our club president. Hopefully it helps

 

[sheaD]

More than likely we will just have to bite the bullet and buy insurance. What type of insurance covers the use of the playground equipment, baseball fields, etc. that others use in our parks where the courses are located?

 

[Oklahyzer]

More than likely we will just have to bite the bullet and buy insurance. What type of insurance covers the use of the playground equipment, baseball fields, etc. that others use in our parks where the courses are located?

Liabilities on public-use lands are a murky area, but in general, cities/counties/states have statutes in place that either absolve or cap their liability unless there's an instance of gross neglect. That puts the responsibilities and woes on the individual users. Groups may be allowed to assemble without permits, or they may have to buy a permit...here, at least, it doesn't affect where liabilities are one bit. This sounds like a question you should ask your D.A. or Attorney General if you can't find it easily from the parks & rec or city officials. Also, you can probably look up your local statutes on www.municode.com and get most questions answered that way.

 

[The Ox]

More than likely we will just have to bite the bullet and buy insurance.

Yes you will.

Our club in Charlotte carries 1 million dollar insurance.

 

[Spookyspence]

The county told the club to build the wall. The club did it with their permission. The club has not put anything their without the counties permission. The county also deemed any bridge 3ft. above the ground a hazard and took those as well. Some of those were boy scout projects.

Sounds more like someone in the county is trying to get disc golfers out of the area and stop "illegal gambling" what one person see as people enjoying the park another see as a bunch of hoodlums.

 

[Dave242]

Before the Charlotte club had insurance we ran into this issue for a night league we ran. The park allowed us to get us around their legalize by having the pre- and post-round meetings off site. They said that they are required to have groups who invite people into their park for sports activities to have insurance, but by coming into the park and just playing, there was no way they could know or enforce that requirement.

It was an inconvenient solution (I don't remember why it only applied to only to the night league - the gates remained open and the park wasn't officially close) and would have not been practical for bigger events. Plus 1-2 years later they changed the rules and we had to get insurance to play or to work on the courses.

Note that we talked with the park people to bend the rules....we did not do so independently. Park departments are our friends. If you can find ways to help them meat their goals for recreation participation levels in their parks, they love it.

Best case is to just comply like every other team sport that uses the parks. It cost us over $1200 per year for a club of 150-200 members. We did not have to pay the $50 per event to the PDGA, so that saved us several hundred.....and I think we included and insurance fee in the accounting for the cost of PDGA events which helped us pay for it (I do not remember the details, and I do not feel like digging out the old reports).

Good luck!

 

[Johnny Conservative]

There are signs posted at the county park I play at the say, "Disc Golf at Your Own Risk"

 

[Sam Nic]

The hook is the fact that you are taking in $ and paying out. By doing so, you are incuring a level of liability.

When a softball league, for example, books a tournament, they pay for the use of the fields and either carry their own insurance or are covered with the park coverage per the fees they pay. Most sporting leagues are for profit and few DG are, we paid $1200 for a 1M policy this year and the cost will probably go up, are up for renewal 7/1.

The next step will be for your little Club to become a corporation, or other legal entity, and have a business license (charging sales tax for cash sales) to handle merchandise on park property. The CDGC had to do all of this to continue running weekly and other events.

As far as the construction in the park goes, we have had to re-establish our relationship within the park dept due to budget cuts. Now there are all new people in authority, many of which we worked with when they were in other positions within the system. Now, any bridge over 18" above the ground requires a handrail. Drop offs have not been an issue yet, as long as we did not cause the dropoff. Walls in any area that has flowing water, either a dry run off chanel or constantly flowing stream, requires review and approval. Federal water shed protection rules pretty much prevent any construction in the protected water shed and good communication with park department is crucial. Establish a person who is the point of contact in the park dept and within the club to keep a consistent and clear communication line open.

I reccomend that you speak with the park folks and see if you can enter into a contract with them which will spell out all expected from both sides. Part of your contract may be a fee per player to run en event. We have been able to avoid these fees by documenting our work day hours and people working to establish a sweat equity and value added to the parks. A large part of negotiations should include the club running community outreach events (clinics, after school program events or disc donations, etc.) which will provide the park folks with a benifit provided basis to show the city/county leaders that you are adding value, for free, to the community.

Good luck, learn the rules and play by them, if you try to skirt the rules, you will lose and could lose the course. Welcome to the business side of DG, can suck or be great if the park wants to work with you and you them.

 

[Oklahyzer]

Before the Charlotte club had insurance we ran into this issue for a night league we ran. The park allowed us to get us around their legalize by having the pre- and post-round meetings off site. They said that they are required to have groups who invite people into their park for sports activities to have insurance, but by coming into the park and just playing, there was no way they could know or enforce that requirement.

It was an inconvenient solution (I don't remember why it only applied to only to the night league - the gates remained open and the park wasn't officially close) and would have not been practical for bigger events. Plus 1-2 years later they changed the rules and we had to get insurance to play or to work on the courses.

Note that we talked with the park people to bend the rules....we did not do so independently. Park departments are our friends. If you can find ways to help them meat their goals for recreation participation levels in their parks, they love it.

Best case is to just comply like every other team sport that uses the parks. It cost us over $1200 per year for a club of 150-200 members. We did not have to pay the $50 per event to the PDGA, so that saved us several hundred.....and I think we included and insurance fee in the accounting for the cost of PDGA events which helped us pay for it (I do not remember the details, and I do not feel like digging out the old reports).

Good luck!

Much the same experience here in various places...and it was like that for our mountain bike club until a rather silly lawsuit (serious situation, bad lawsuit) changed everything - and those changes unfortunately stuck. Very good point about parks departments being our friends. That's very often the case and outside of budget constraints they're often great people to work with, especially if you can develop a good rapport with the decision makers. The way most statutes are written, there is a fair amount of grey area, if not an outright statement of "discretionary" powers of judgement granted to the department heads. Not exactly fair, but as long as there isn't a Nazi in charge, it usually works out to better everyone's enjoyment of the facilities.

 

[sheaD]

A lot of you guys in Charlotte that are responding are probably very familiar with the course in question (Castle Hayne) and our guy that is the liason b/w us and the county. It sounds like you Charlotte guys have already been through the same situation and offered some great advice. I will pass this along to our county contact. Thanks for the constructive input!