difference between advanced and advanced masters

[adam fuhs]

just wanted cleared up on this, i was going to sign up on intermediate for ironwood but now i want to up the par a little i want to go advanced or adv. masters but i dont understand the difference, and what do they normally pay out $ wise for what division. it seems to be a little expensive to join when theres no payout for some divisions, who wants to pay 50+ dollars to golf a free track. the tourny sign up sheet is out and they got 7 people on it dont you think that if they lowered the price for entry they would get a bunch more people involved in these events. 90%of the people on the course are younger hippy kids like myself and there are a lot of other things i could do with 50 bucs thats pretty much half of an allgood festival ticket. any info would be appreciated and let me know where you stand on these topics. thx

 

[Russell Gore]

Ok first of all if your young your not even eligible for Adv. Masters. The Masters Division no matter what class is for 40 years old and up. Grandmasters is 50 and up. Neither of these classes pay very well anyhow, simply because there are generally less people in these classes. That means that there wasn't enough people playing to raise the payouts. In most cases Payouts are determined by how many people are in each class. Sometimes there is added money but that is generally saved for the open classes(PRO).
Now that you know that I should tell you this. If this is a PDGA sanctioned event which I would guess it is, you can not receive money as a prize anyways. That is Pro's only. Everyone else must except Plastic(discs) as a prize. If at any point you decide to except a cash payout at a PDGA event you are now Pro for life. There is no going back.
Im not sure that you are aware of what is going on, judging by what you wrote. First of all have you ever played in a tournament? Advanced class is the best of the Am players. These are all guys shooting well under par on any given day. These people are all seasoned vets in the sport. The next step for an advanced player is Pro. Now about the Intermediate class, these are the guys who have been playing a while yet can't put together the consistency to play against the advanced guys. Depending on how long you have played you may be better off playing Recreational, or Novice. My rating says that I am an Intermediate player (875). I have been playing for about 15 years. Granted I have only been competing in tournaments now for about 4 years. One mistake can really screw your rating for a long while. My very first tournament is still haunting me. I shot a +14 and a +12 on a course that everyone else was close or under par on. Four years later and im still trying to get rid of that crappy day.
Heres a few things for you: http://www.pdga.com/documents/2008/08PlayerDivisionsGrid.pdf
This is the division guide and the ratings that go along with it. If you have never been to the PDGA site it would be a good idea to familiarize yourself with everything on this site. Anything you need to know about this sport can be found on this site. Also think seriously about getting a membership. This is how you get ratings. The benefits of a PDGA membership outweigh the cost.
Now about the high cost of playing. Since this sport is still fairly young we do not have the luxury of other major sports. We don't have a great deal of sponsorships yet, therefore the payouts are based on what your entry fee is and how many players show up. A lot of TD's are now raising the entry fees in hopes that more players will show up if the payouts are higher. There is no real way at this point to tell you what the payouts will be for any class at this tournament until the day of when they count the available money. So do some research and good luck at your tournament...........
Hope I answered all your questions!!!!!!!!

 

[Russell Gore]

As for how I stand on these topics........
I'm all for higher entry fees. I would rather pay more and take the chance that I won't win. If it is a lower entry fee the payout will suck in most cases. However I understand your pain. Money is hard to come by these days. That is why I think you should start in a lower division. Don't "UP THE PAR" on yourself. This is a very competitive sport with some really good players. Your chances of winning are greatly improved if you play in a lower class such as REC or NOVICE. If you have no PDGA rating than no one really knows how well you shoot. So you can play in any class you choose. The odds on you winning in advanced are slim and none. Im not clowning you but anyone playing in advanced knows the difference between masters and grandmasters and normal classes. This tells me that you are fairly new to the sport, so don't go off and cut your own throat before you even get a chance. Start at the bottom and work your way up. There are a few guys here in Louisville who thought that because all there buddies were playing Advanced that they could. After 2 tournaments last year they all were back down in Intermediate. It was quite embarrassing for them to say the least.
Do more research man!!!! The more you know the better player you will be, learn the Rules, Divisions, Ratings, SSA......Learn the differences in discs and companies.....Learn what Fade is VS. Turn, Learn Speed of discs.....Learn Hyzer and Anhyzer, Thumber and Tomahawk, Scoobie, and Forehand.......
You've got a lot to learn still grasshopper

 

[adam fuhs]

thanks for the advice but in all do respect im not a novice to the sport got just as many years under my belt as you, im just new to the structered tournament scene we always just get together and play as much a we can. never cared about it until we got a track close enough to really get into tournament/league play. all i wanted to know was what division to get in and why it cost so much to enter the tourny. what i still dont get though is the plastic credit thing say if i pay fifty to get in and win or even reach top ten in the intermediate div(thats what i plan on joining) what kind of credit approx. would someone recieve. saying that the 90 person roster was filled. not trying to cause any problems just trying to see how things go and this site i found is the best way to do that any info is much apprieciated thx again

 

[kvanorsdel]

I believe PDGA events have a formula for determining payout depending on the number of people who show up the day of the event per division. If there is added "cash" to a division that then can go on top of the amount established by the PDGA payout formula.

Payout is pretty limited in the lower AM divisions.

You can look at the PDGA site and get most of the info from there
http://pdga.com/documents/td/2008tourinfo.php

http://pdga.com/documents/2008/08PayTables.pdf

 

[Russell Gore]

I didn't mean anything bad by what I said. I just figured that in most cases if you were asking what classes are, you were probably a newbie. At least thats the way it works around here(Louisville). Obviously I was wrong though and this is a case of what it used to be like around here. I played for 10 years before anyone ever said, hey there is a sanctioned body overseeing this sport.
Ok so what will the approximate payout be? Like the other guy posted there is a chart that they use to figure your credit. Now I have only played in one tournament where they just gave you credit. In every other case it has been pre-determined by the TD what you will get. Basically it's a stack of discs(7-10) for a first or second place finish. So lets say that you fill that 90 person roster. You will probably have say 25-30 in the Intermediate class. The TD would pay out about 12 spots. They take the total amount put in for that class and compare it to the PDGA chart. This is where they "GET YOU ON", the club will try and make money off of this if they are not paying you in credit. They can always make money back off of discs. Reason is they will charge you store price for a disc instead of the wholesale price they receive. So they can make back about $2-3 per disc. I personally think it is a total crock that they do this, but how are you ever gonna stop it? So basically for a first place finish with 30 people you get about 10-12 discs. Remember though that is just a guess.
So it sounds like you are trying to figure out if it is worth playing in? I would say that in most cases it is never worth your money, that is unless they give you a decent players pack that includes a shirt and a disc. Than it might be worth your money, at least you can walk away with something. They have cut that out in recent years around here. This is yet another way the club can screw you and give your money to the PRO's. If you receive plastic, you can do this on your own and get discs that you like, with your $50. Not just have a pre-determined stack that includes 2 or 3 left over players pack discs shoved in. I play, to improve. Never once have I went into a tournament expecting to win. I just play in hopes that I can one day make it to the PRO class and than receive money!!!!!!! So hope this help you a bit.
Now do you guys have a local club that will be running this event? If so I would say contact the TD and discuss these matters with him. I can't guarantee that they will be nice about it but maybe they can fill you in a little better about how they will run it. Everyone in every city is a little different in the way they run an event. Im just telling you how things go here, and they don't always go well here!!!!!!!!! We have a "CLIQUE" of Morons running things here!!! If your not a part of the "CLIQUE" your an "OUTKAST"!!!!

 

[adam fuhs]

thats what i was trying to figure out i guess if it is even worth playing for the price they where asking. if they only payout the pros that sucks who the hell wants to payout money so the pros can win it all i can get online and buy as many discs that i want who really wants plastic credit. i mean its a cool idea to do plastic credit but like i said i can get better discs and more of them online for the fifty dollars you would pay to enter. dont get me wrong the whole idea of sanctioned/league play is a great thing but i know for a fact that charging that much and paying nothing out to most of the players is losing them money i know about 10-15 people that arent getting in because of that.. oh well it would be fun but its not really fun if you dont think from the get go you are going to kick everyones ass and win the prize and in this case the prize dosnt make anyone to excited.. thanks for the info... good luck this year

 

[Three Putt]

Ok so what will the approximate payout be? Like the other guy posted there is a chart that they use to figure your credit. Now I have only played in one tournament where they just gave you credit. In every other case it has been pre-determined by the TD what you will get. Basically it's a stack of discs(7-10) for a first or second place finish. So lets say that you fill that 90 person roster. You will probably have say 25-30 in the Intermediate class. The TD would pay out about 12 spots. They take the total amount put in for that class and compare it to the PDGA chart. This is where they "GET YOU ON", the club will try and make money off of this if they are not paying you in credit. They can always make money back off of discs. Reason is they will charge you store price for a disc instead of the wholesale price they receive. So they can make back about $2-3 per disc. I personally think it is a total crock that they do this, but how are you ever gonna stop it? So basically for a first place finish with 30 people you get about 10-12 discs. Remember though that is just a guess.

The wholesale/retail differential is how my old club made the money to buy baskets for new courses, install concrete tee pads, etc. It is how a club can make money off a PDGA event, and hopefully the bylaws of the clubs dictate that the money go back into the sport. If a club was not going to take in significant income from running a PDGA event, why bother? They are a lot of work if done right. If it is not going to result in a profit that can be used to improve the courses, skip it and run a local unsanctioned tournament.
If your local club is not using the money you make off PDGA events to grow the sport locally, then you have something to complain about. By in large, most clubs do use the money they make to grow the sport.

 

[Russell Gore]

Im sorry but I disagree with that. There are fund raiser discs, or you could hold non-sanctioned tournaments to raise money. There is no reason why people should get short changed during a sanctioned PDGA tournament. For example this past weekend at the BG Am's. Someone placed 26 in Intermediate, He got the same $25 voucher that the guy who finished 80th got. Than when he went to cash his voucher the discs prices had been raised $3-4 for all of the discs(with the exception of Quest AT). He had just bought several discs outright that were the same discs for a lower cost(ex.ESP FORCE $15 before the prize ceremony,after the ceremony $18) . Now how fair is that. There has to be other ways to raise money than by screwing the guys who play in the tournaments. The Pro's don't get docked "cash" to help the club's, so why do you screw the AM's?
Thats just my opinion on this subject!!! Hope I don't upset anyone. Regardless of the reasons I still play in tournaments. I don't boycott them because of this, I just disagree with the reasons. There are a million other ways to raise money for the club's. Everyone just wants to use the easiest way possible.That way its less work on them!

 

[adam fuhs]

all the baskets as far as i know are already donated and the tee boxes are natural so what do they need money for the course for plus its a state park so the park employees keep up with maintenance on the course i dont know why they would be taking money out of tourny to fund their own club that is located 40 miles away...

 

[Three Putt]

Not to argue, just to give another point of view...I worked for 15 years in parks & recreation. I ran a lot of events. Softball tournaments, tennis tournaments, 5-10K runs...you name it, I've run it. For each of these events, there was an entry fee. For the individual sports like disc golf is, every player got a t-shirt or something for entering, the same as a players pack. The players pack would be worth far less than the price of entering. The payout would be trophies. Top three or four places no matter how many people signed up. The more players I attract, the more money the event made. People showed up and participated for the fun and experience of playing. No one seemed to mind that the event host made money. The money went back into the park general fund. It could be used for anything the parks department deemed necessary.

Now take disc golf. Players expect to pay a fee and get a players pack. Then they want a payout for their division worth 100% or more of their combined entry fee. There are other fees like sanctioning fees, park pavilion rentals, TD expenses, etc. but the players don't care. If the value of the tournament to the players is not 120-150% of their entry fees, they think they got ripped off. So the TD has to find sponsorship to cover all the expenses AND add value to the payout to keep people happy. If any money does happen to be generated, disc golfers expect that the money goes right back into the sport.

I just don't see this. I can't figure out why we have to have added value and prizes heaped upon us in order to play. People in other sports are willing to pay for the experience of a good event that provides good competition and don't expect to profit for their recreation. For some reason, disc golfers expect to get paid for having fun.

Under our system, a TD really gains nothing for running a good event. The more players you have, the more work you have BUT the payout gets bigger so you don't make any more money. As a TD, I'd rather run a little 35 player event than put in the work to attract 150 players, run my butt off all weekend and end up with nothing to show or it.

We depend on sponsorship to make this system work. Here is a question...Why would you sponsor a disc golf event when we deliver zero spectators and media coverage. Why would a business sponsor an event that will not be seen by anyone other than 100 or so participants and will not be covered in the local media? You can get better advertising value buying shirts for a little league baseball team.

So based on my experience running other sports tournaments, I feel that disc golfers have a very inflated sense of entitlement when it comes to tournament payouts. I think the payouts are way too high and the entire system is unrealistic.

 

[Russell Gore]

Hey Adam, There is a guy here in the State of Kentucky who runs the Bluegrass Series. He lives in Bowling Green and travels all over the state holding tournaments. None of the money made goes to those courses where the tournament was held. Instead this all goes back with him to BG. So it happens everywhere. These are the kind of people who will eventually hurt, instead of help the sport. Now as far as funding disc golf courses goes I hear this all the time out of our local club. They are always trying to generate money to fund courses. Yet the City of Louisville has paid for our most recent course out of grant money. Not only that, but they gave enough money(40,000 +) to build 2 or 3 quality courses. So instead of using the money wisely, we got 4 bridges built that are absolutely ridiculous. You could drive cars across these things.We also over payed some idiot contractor ($1000 per pad) to pour us "ICE SKATING RINKS" for tee pads. Yet the entire time we keep hearing that there is still upwards of several thousand dollars left to put towards another course. So why are they raising money? We don't have maintinence costs, the local golfers are the maintainers! I think it all goes back to the old adage......... If you give someone a position of power they are bound to turn corrupt!

 

[MattK]

If we're still talking about Moraine, I believe the club has been raising money to improve the course with concrete tees. From what I've read recently, some additional signs and perhaps a kiosk may be in the works as well. Were it not for the "club 40 miles away", not only would the Ironwood open not be happening, but the disc golf course we enjoy playing all of the time for free would not even have been built in the first place. I won't be playing in the event; my level of play simply isn't good enough yet. But if I were I'd be happy to see a good portion of my money go to the organization that is doing more than anyone else to promote and improve disc golf in the region.

 

[adam fuhs]

i get your point matt but i also get and i agree with russell the course is unbelievable and wouldnt talk no crap on anyone who had anytthing to do with bringing about i guess i just want a chance to at least win my money back if i do good in a tourney maybe someday we will pay out all participants of the sport if they win or at least place in there divisions. im just a competitive person who wants to but cant afford to compete in the sport of sanctioned disc golf and believe me like i said if they were charging 20 for the tourny they would have a lot more paticipants and there in turn more money for the kitty and if was only 20-30 bucs i wouldnt mind only getting disc credit i usually spend that much every month anyways on something for the sport

 

[kUrTp]

asfg

 

[kUrTp]

First off, the PDGA sets the prices for entry fees. Money comes out of each entry fee for a number of thing. The Ironwood Open is a mid-atlantic disc club sponsored tourney and a can-am series event so that a couple bucks right there. The PDGA charges $1 per person also. Every club that runs a PDGA event is allowed to take money from each players entry fee for player packs also. Luckly the PFDS is a large club and has dedicated people collecting money and donations so the players packs are already paid for.

Raising money for a sport that is not even close to mainstream is a tough thing. Moraine State Park has nothing to do with the dg course. Yes, they mow the grass but thats it. The PFDS did all the work, raised the money, asked for donations, and is still raising money to install concrete tee pads. It will cost a pretty penny to install 54 tee pads, that's 3 per tee. It took almost 10 years for that course to happen. A ton of time was spent talking to the state park system so that we had approval to do so. Then about 3 years to actually design, clear, and install. Moraine State Park is one of the best courses around so i wouldn't be to critical about the club that made it happen. If you are a PDGA member you would have recieved the new magazine which had a great article about Moraine. Every course in the pittsburgh area, I mean Western PA., from Moraine to The College Lodge in Indiana, PA has been installed by the PFDS, which is a Non-Profit group. Where do you think the money for these courses came from? Not all donations!

Don't take this personally but I know the people who spent their time and money so that people like you can have one of the best courses in the country right in your back yard.

If you would like to see how and where the PFDS spends their money you are more than welcome to come to the next club meeting. But first you'll have to join...$10 a year.

 

[kUrTp]

And by the way, The Intermediate entry fee for the Ironwood Open is $36 without PDGA and $26 with PDGA membership. The players pack is worth @ $25 bucks ($15 for disc, $10 for t-shirt) plus other swagg. There's no reason why you should be worried about not getting your money back in prizes, the players pack almost covers that. If you play moraine even once a month there's no reason for you not to play in this event.

 

[weum107]

As Lagwagon says, Give It Back!

Look....we all enjoy the sport at the remarkable cost of FREE everyday so there should be nary a complaint from true DG enthusiasts. The typical tournie players pack is a great value and serves mainly to remind you of the experience you had playing in the event. Awesome. Entertainment of this caliber has a price and a very distinct value as well. For those of you content with that, pay the fee and enjoy the competition and camaraderie. If you are just lookin for the big cash payout, it might be a decade or two down the road ......Honestly, those who have local events should feel fortunate, as many of us play beautiful courses that don't see organized competition. Keep those chains ringin'!

 

[Three Putt]

On the original post the guy mentioned lowering the price to get people to play. Around here there is a Club that has done some unorthodox things very successfully. They always allow you to play "trophy only," which means you enter for a fraction of the price but the only thing you can win is a trophy. A lot of guys who want to see how they will do playing in Open but don't want to risk all that money-especially if they were going to decline the cash so that they could stay Am for USADGC or Am World's anyway-will sign up "trophy only."
They also allow you to sign up "Half-In," which is just what it sounds like. You enter at half price, you get a smaller players pack and if you cash you get half of the value you would have won.
This gives players more control over the price they have to pay to participate in events. They have been very successful attracting non-PDGA members to PDGA sanctioned events by doing these things. Most of these players don't like paying a larger entery fee + the PDGA non-member fee, so these options help keep the cost down. These players really don't expect to cash at an event anyway, so the reduced payout really does not seem to bother them.
There is a lot of room for creative approaches to attract players to events. All it takes is a Club or TD with ideas that they are not afraid to try.