How to handle when a TD may have made a math error in payouts

[Telperion]

I understand that this is disc golf's own fault. But, you are grossly entitled. As David stated below, we are one of the only sports that give ANYTHING substantial back to participants.

I personally would be glad to play a well run tournament for nothing other than the organized competition. I would gladly pay up to 40 bucks for the opportunity. The idea that everyone should get a trophy is kind of lame, in my opinion. I play for the chance to compete. I don't need t shirts, discs, trophies to make my self feel better. The value is in the course and the competition set up.

You calculations and the ones in use for the tournament you describe are out of line with tournaments across the country.

Seems you have now gone from intimating an ethical breach by the TD of this tournament, to finding it one of the few you will find exceptable. You are going to be outraged at the normal tournament spreadsheet. From fraud to the best ever....quite a flip flop. :thmbup::thmbup:

It may have been an innocent oversight

I started out this thread saying that I didn't think there was malfeasance, just that I didn't understand. I never had an issue with this TD. I had an issue with what the TD's in this thread claimed was typical and reasonable. How could I possibly think there was an ethical breach when this entire time I had no idea what the actual breakdown was? This entire thread I've been discussing hypothetical scenarios based on possible fee structures. If this TD structured the fees and values the way the TD's in this thread described, then I would have a problem. They didn't, so I don't. It's simple. Have you never calculated an array of outcomes before based on a variable set of inputs?

As the wise sage Mugatu once said, "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills." It's like I keep saying, I'm fine with disagreement. If someone is disagreeing with something I never said though, or claiming I said something I didn't, that's where I get pissed off.

 

[davetherocketguy]

I'm fully aware of how petty it is to quote all of you to tag you, but as you can see from my comment above, it turns out that I was absolutely spot on about the actual value of the player pack. So... I was right, all along, to value the player pack like that. You're all more than welcome to value a t-shirt at $16-18 in your player packs, and I'll continue to think that you're ripping off your players. We can agree to disagree, since I know we won't see eye to eye on this.

Ever been to one of my tourneys? If not, I'm going to suggest never saying anything like that. Ever. I mean, unless you enjoy demonstrating complete ignorance on topics you know nothing about. But hey, you do you.

Every tourney I run I get at least one or two that complain about payouts. And every tourney I keep a spreadsheet outlining expenses and what actual cost is vs. MSRP and so on and I offer to sit down with literally ANYONE that played to go over it so they know where their money went. Guess how many have taken me up on that offer...zero. You strike me as one of these people who want to complain and keyboard warrior it up without trying to understand what's really going on...

 

[ru4por]

Interesting comment and I agree. Regardless if the motive is profit or just wanting to have a big ol fantastic player pack, the larger the event fee the more the player thinks about the player pack and it's value. For me personally, anything higher than 45.00 (for a 2 round event) and I start to consider what's in the player pack.

May I be so bold to ask the TDs in this thread a question? Regardless the number of players in an event, what do you think is a fair amount of net profit generated from each player that goes directly to the TD? I'm only talking about net profits from player packs, and event fees. Thx.

In the case of my club....none. We run events to make money for the club. The club is non profit and designed to funnel the money back to the local disc golf community. Charity, courses, down on their luck players....

The TD and most club members come out in the negative. We often spend our own money on small stuff.

The OP, does not seem to have the experience to get any of this. Maybe it comes with age. He has no idea what is involved with the entire year long process of running a tournament, or a series of them. Sadly, this was a great opportunity to learn a lot about it, but being right was the only goal and self proclaimed accomplishment.

 

[biscoe]

May I be so bold to ask the TDs in this thread a question? Regardless the number of players in an event, what do you think is a fair amount of net profit generated from each player that goes directly to the TD? I'm only talking about net profits from player packs, and event fees. Thx.

Some time next year i will run my 100th PDGA event. I have run A tiers both Am and Pro and have served as assistant TD for a Major. I also run a well received series of C tiers with a $15 entry fee for amateur divisions. For many years I considered an event which cost me $200 or less to run a successful one from a financial standpoint. That is no longer the case.

In my opinion the amount of profit made by a TD is completely irrelevant to the question of whether an event is worth the money outlaid by the player. An amateur entry fee should be looked at like any other purchase in life- is the composite worth the money? If the cheeseburger is worth $1.49 to you then buy the cheeseburger. If not then don't. The cost of bread and "meat" (it is a $1.49 cheeseburger after all) to McDonald's should not factor into your decision.

 

[dehaas]

First place was $45 voucher I believe, 4th was $35 voucher. Using the pay tables, those numbers calculate back to a $350 total payout. Breaking down the entry fees, the only way to get to that payout is if the Net Entry Fee was $14, meaning the player pack had to have been assigned a retail value of $36. A t-shirt and disc doesn't seem like a $36 retail value to me.

Am I seeing this correctly? Like I said earlier, I'm not saying there was TD malfeasance, it could have been a simple math mistake. Or maybe the TD got the player pack value mixed up with the value of a different recent tournament that had a 2-disc player pack. Lots of innocent mistake scenarios. I want to make sure I'm not making a newbie error in my calculations before I message the TD and ask if the calculation was accidentally incorrect.

Looking at your original post you were bent out of shape about a $36 retail valued players pack...

Still not sure how you pegged a $22 value and how that's correct to within a dollar?

That's why everybody is giving you a hard time...not much consistency in what you're saying.

 

[Telperion]

Ever been to one of my tourneys? If not, I'm going to suggest never saying anything like that. Ever. I mean, unless you enjoy demonstrating complete ignorance on topics you know nothing about. But hey, you do you.

Every tourney I run I get at least one or two that complain about payouts. And every tourney I keep a spreadsheet outlining expenses and what actual cost is vs. MSRP and so on and I offer to sit down with literally ANYONE that played to go over it so they know where their money went. Guess how many have taken me up on that offer...zero. You strike me as one of these people who want to complain and keyboard warrior it up without trying to understand what's really going on...

For now the 3rd time this thread (I counted), I don't care about payouts, this isn't about payouts. I would play in tournaments with no payouts and no player pack, if the entry fee was in what I consider a reasonable range for the my perception of the value I'm receiving. If the value isn't there to me, I don't play, no harm no foul.

I'm also completely fine with the wholesale / retail difference going to the TD as profit or simply to fund the experience for everyone. Absolutely reasonable, everybody wins. I'm not fine with $5-6 t-shirts being called $16-18 t-shirts though, like many in this thread are doing.

As for being a keyboard warrior, none of this is personal. You think I'm a keyboard warrior, I think $5 t-shirts shouldn't be called $16 t-shirts, we simply disagree and that's fine.

 

[ru4por]

Ever been to one of my tourneys? If not, I'm going to suggest never saying anything like that. Ever. I mean, unless you enjoy demonstrating complete ignorance on topics you know nothing about. But hey, you do you.

Every tourney I run I get at least one or two that complain about payouts. And every tourney I keep a spreadsheet outlining expenses and what actual cost is vs. MSRP and so on and I offer to sit down with literally ANYONE that played to go over it so they know where their money went. Guess how many have taken me up on that offer...zero. You strike me as one of these people who want to complain and keyboard warrior it up without trying to understand what's really going on...

Some TD's around here actually list the player pack value on the About section of the DGS tournament page. Gives players a heads up as to what number will be used. Also a bit of a marketing strategy for players placing an importance on such. Here is an actual screenshot of a local TD's description.

Added cash and prizes, sponsored trophies and jumbo toss, AM player pack will be a disc golf tourney mask/neck gator (very cool looking & designed for the event and for general disc golf use) and a microfiber towel ($18+ value for the 2 items). // Am Payouts will consist of disc & merch payout with 2000+ disc golf items available for payouts, // The event will be an efficient & professional run event that well be completed in a timely manner. //

 

[dehaas]

Some time next year i will run my 100th PDGA event. I have run A tiers both Am and Pro and have served as assistant TD for a Major. I also run a well received series of C tiers with a $15 entry fee for amateur divisions. For many years I considered an event which cost me $200 or less to run a successful one from a financial standpoint. That is no longer the case.

In my opinion the amount of profit made by a TD is completely irrelevant to the question of whether an event is worth the money outlaid by the player. An amateur entry fee should be looked at like any other purchase in life- is the composite worth the money? If the cheeseburger is worth $1.49 to you then buy the cheeseburger. If not then don't. The cost of bread and "meat" (it is a $1.49 cheeseburger after all) to McDonald's should not factor into your decision.

That's about the best stated way to think about it in my opinion.

It also irritates my when people don't factor in the "entertainment value" of things. Showing up for $5 random draw dubs or something, you might only win a couple of times a year. But broken down each week I'd easily pay 5 bucks to show up for a couple of hours and have a fun evening.

Definitely think that aspect of it very few people see unless they've ran an event.

 

[mojorooks]

Well, this blew up.

I got clarification -- the course fee for this event was higher than typical due to the venue.

The value of the player pack was $22. $22 for a disc and a t-shirt roughly breaks down to the $16 disc MSRP I referred to + $6 t-shirt.

How did you get the value of the shirt? I've had to order Tshirts for a kids team and paying $6 a piece sounds pretty cheap. Is that without the artwork? And we are talking wholesale, not market price right? Standard markup for items like that are 100% so a shirt you have printed for $6 could actual market for 12.


I guess my question back to you is: How much value do you place on playing in a tournament?

 

[davetherocketguy]

I literally provided a link where disc golf tees are being sold for $13 to $25 and am told that if I value them at MSRP at $16 I'm ripping players off...smh

 

[Telperion]

In the case of my club....none. We run events to make money for the club. The club is non profit and designed to funnel the money back to the local disc golf community. Charity, courses, down on their luck players....

The TD and most club members come out in the negative. We often spend our own money on small stuff.

The OP, does not seem to have the experience to get any of this. Maybe it comes with age. He has no idea what is involved with the entire year long process of running a tournament, or a series of them. Sadly, this was a great opportunity to learn a lot about it, but being right was the only goal and self proclaimed accomplishment.

Feeding back into the club for the benefit of everyone is great, I can get behind that.

I would happily learn what goes into running a tournament, I just don't want to learn from people who support a hypothetical 300-350% retail markup valuation on event t-shirts. I'm not closed minded, it's simply that another thing that comes with age is the knowledge not to waste time on something you know you disagree with. I listen to different perspectives, I just don't create needless friction when I know something isn't going to mesh.

 

[Dingus]

I think that first place in each division should AT LEAST make back their entry fee. So a $45 first place payout on a $50 entry seems dumb to me. Of course that means less payouts down the line, it doesn't mean we have to make a TD eat it.

I laugh whenever I see these threads. There is so little profit potential in a disc golf tournament, hearing people complain online is just funny. I would love to hear from the established TDs on their most profitable tournament of all time. I am willing to bet it amounted to something around minimum wage for their time spent.

 

[Telperion]

Looking at your original post you were bent out of shape about a $36 retail valued players pack...

Still not sure how you pegged a $22 value and how that's correct to within a dollar?

That's why everybody is giving you a hard time...not much consistency in what you're saying.

It's a long thread now so things can get lost, I said this later in the thread:

"If cost is low, the net can be divided one of 3 ways: payouts to players, extra profit to TD, or reduced entry fees so that there is a lower net in the first place."

I wasn't bent about what I received in swag or payouts, rather, I was unclear whether or not my entry fees matched up to the total value in (swag, payouts, and tournament fun). I get into the details at other points, but I doubt anyone wants to read the whole thread again (I certainly don't).

 

[Telperion]

Some time next year i will run my 100th PDGA event. I have run A tiers both Am and Pro and have served as assistant TD for a Major. I also run a well received series of C tiers with a $15 entry fee for amateur divisions. For many years I considered an event which cost me $200 or less to run a successful one from a financial standpoint. That is no longer the case.

In my opinion the amount of profit made by a TD is completely irrelevant to the question of whether an event is worth the money outlaid by the player. An amateur entry fee should be looked at like any other purchase in life- is the composite worth the money? If the cheeseburger is worth $1.49 to you then buy the cheeseburger. If not then don't. The cost of bread and "meat" (it is a $1.49 cheeseburger after all) to McDonald's should not factor into your decision.

I agree with you completely. That's honestly why I've been so frustrated in this thread, replies from people who think I disagree with them on certain things when I don't.

If I feel the composite is worth the money, I don't care what profit anyone makes. If I feel the composite was dubiously worth the money, then I start looking into where the value proposition broke down. That's what this thread has been.

I'd gladly play in one of your C tiers with a $15 or even a $20 entry fee and no expectation of anything in return other than the experience itself, if it was a well-received event and an enjoyable experience. It costs money to run an event.

Most of my issue in this thread has been TD's who are (in my estimation) trying to justify what I consider to be unethical inflation of retail value on merchandise. The PDGA clearly cares because they have standards which mandate how valuation must take place. As a simple point of morals and ethics, I disagree with anyone using fuzzy math to flout the PDGA standards.

 

[Golden Tuna]

I feel like a broken record. I don't care about the payouts. The payouts are muddying the issue and you're getting hung up on something I moved away from about 4 comments ago.

DISCLAIMER: You're not concerned about the payout, you're concerned about where the rest of the money is going. Understood... From my perspective you're still not providing enough details for us experienced TD's to advise you properly. We need additional context such as:

1. How many players were in your division
2. Did the TD use/distribute paper score cards, player cards, pencils, or a leader board - those all cost money...
3. Was there a shelter/pavilion rented for the event? - Those cost money...
4. Was the course closed/rented for the event? - That costs money...
5. How many tee shirts were ordered? The price/unit is important both from a cost and players pack evaluation.
*Just because he was trying to unload them at $5/ea does not mean they cost <$5.

So, while I understand it might "look" bad to an inexperienced amateur, there is A LOT of context that is likely just not public knowledge.

So, let's do math...
$50 entry fee/player
-$3 PDGA fee/player for
* The $10 non-PDGA fee is pass through BTW. The Club/TD makes nothing there. It goes straight to the PDGA

> $47/player in the purse
- $18 premium disc - we can all agree this is "high", but still market value

> $29/player to the purse
- $15/shirt - I recently TD'd an event. We ordered 60 shirts. The cost was roughly $17/ea. Sometimes this can cost more if you need:
A. Graphic Design
B. It's a new design that requires a setup fee
C. You order less than a minimum order quantity
D. You order shirts larger than XL - there is a $1-$2 premium for shirts XXL & above

> $14/player to the purse
- Administration fees: score cards, player cards, leader board, pencils, potential course rental, potential shelter rental (round all this to ~$2/player)

> So, now you're left with $12/player that goes into the purse without the TD getting anything. Was water/drinks provided? Were they cold? Were they in coolers? Were flags/paint used to mark OB? Were there any CTPs during the round? What about games (longest drive, putting context, etc.?) How deep (# of places) were paid?

The TD "makes" money from inventory, so that $45 voucher isn't even $45 of profit - that inventory cost the TD money... In reality, the TD might make 40% of the voucher, so $18. :|

It is really easy to wonder where all the money goes, especially when you don't have the necessary context to understand the cost model. Trust me, as a TD, you want to boost the payout. If, for nothing else to avoid being unnecessarily bitched out by people throwing frisbees for fun...

 

[biscoe]

I would love to hear from the established TDs on their most profitable tournament of all time. I am willing to bet it amounted to something around minimum wage for their time spent.

Our club made roughly $3k off of running the 2019 USWDGC. We set a fundraising goal of $30k for the event with the idea that what we raised beyond that would be split 3 ways between the purse, the event charity, and the club. Had we raised $30k exactly the club would have made nothing. As it was we raised $13k for a very worthy charity, had the largest women's payout in the game's history and made $3k off of literally thousands of hours of work. This was a 16 month process from start to finish, longer if you consider the application process.

 

[DiscFifty]

...

...

Thanks, my question was related to the PDGA in the future potentially helping the TDs bottom line by paying them something to run an event. Which I certainly think they should do. If a TD knew ahead of time they were going to get x amount per player guaranteed, perhaps that would help them organize things a little smoother. ?

here is so little profit potential in a disc golf tournament, hearing people complain online is just funny.

Back when I was a bit concerned with prices going up for events, I discussed this very issue with a TD who had recently relocated to my neck of the woods. Bottom line...there is money to be made but your mileage will vary depending on the business savvy of the TD. And this was also when I leaned how big a role the player pack can play in regards to the TDs bottom line. I certainly admit I have some issues with the PDGA and how they financially structure events, but I'm all for TDs making as much money as they can.

 

[jakebake91]

I'm fully aware of how petty it is to quote all of you to tag you, but as you can see from my comment above, it turns out that I was absolutely spot on about the actual value of the player pack. So... I was right, all along, to value the player pack like that. You're all more than welcome to value a t-shirt at $16-18 in your player packs, and I'll continue to think that you're ripping off your players. We can agree to disagree, since I know we won't see eye to eye on this.

Wow. The need for validation is STRONG with this one.

Buddy, a lot of these guys in here are incredibly experienced TDs. They know EXACTLY what they are talking about. You admitted flat out you didnt. You came in here with a gripe. You expected sympathetic responses and validation. You got none.

Yes I see you got your breakdown from your TD and all is good in the world again on that front. I see it as you got very lucky dealing with a very generous TD. I would have been perfectly happy with the payout structure you received. And I'm smart enough to take these others guys in here at their word that IT WAS FAIR. You think they are ripping off their players? Would they be successful TDs for long if that were actually true? Your TD have you an incredible bargain. These guys would have given you average value. That makes them in wrong?

I don't even have any skin in this game, and you basically calling out a bunch of guys as crooks p***es me off.

 

[Dingus]

made $3k off of literally thousands of hours of work.

$3 per hour at best... even worse than I thought. :gross:

As an adult, the value of time becomes more and more apparent. If I am making $3 per hour, I consider that losing money, not making it. Literally every non leisure activity in my life carries an ROI higher than $3 per hour.

 

[Horsman]

You're all more than welcome to value a t-shirt at $16-18 in your player packs, and I'll continue to think that you're ripping off your players.

But we arent the ones ripping off players. We are the players who are more then ok with being ripped off in your opinion. I thankfully dont have to deal with feeling ripped off since I play open but you are going to have a very hard time dealing with the valuation of players packs if and when you play tournaments held by other TD's. You will not find many TD's that will value their player packs that low and rightfully so imo.